Bananas are Bad for Babies...and Other Historical Infant Feeding Practices with Jennifer Traig

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Jennifer Traig (3m 5s):

All fruit was considered suspect, but bananas particularly. And part of the reason is they weren't really familiar with vitamins, not really familiar with fiber, so there doesn't seem to be any good reason to eat fruit.

Katie Ferraro (3m 16s):

Hey there, I'm Katie Ferraro, registered dietitian, college nutrition professor and mom of seven specializing in Baby-Led Weaning. Here on the Baby-Led Weaning with Katie Ferraro podcast. I help you strip out all of the noise and nonsense about feeding, giving you the confidence and knowledge you need to give you baby a safe start to solid foods using Baby-Led Weaning. Are there any parenting practices that you currently are engaging in that you just wonder, gosh, do you think future parents or my own kids or my grandkids are gonna look back on me and wonder like, why in the world did she think that that was a good idea when I was a baby? Okay, maybe all of these like super regimented sleep schedules will turn out to be bad for babies.

Katie Ferraro (4m 1s):

Or kind of like how, you know, doctors used to recommend, you know, you've got to start solid foods with white rice cereal. Now we know, Nope, it's totally laden with arsenic and there are actually lots of other foods that could work ideally as a first food for baby. Well, my guest today has a very interesting perspective on modern parenting. Her name is Jennifer Reg and she's the author of the book, Act Natural, A Cultural History of Misadventures in Parenting. Now as a rule, I do not love parenting books. I think they're oftentimes too preachy or too opinionated. I loved Jennifer's book, Act Natural. I was laughing out loud, she has a fabulous sense of humor, but she's just done an amazing amount of research for this book. And I, for one, don't have time to research historical feeding practices.

Katie Ferraro (4m 41s):

So I would rather listen to someone read them to me. I loved, loved, loved Jennifer's book. It's a history all about the ridiculous things that parrots over the ages have done from things like restricting fruit because of the belief that it would harm babies to all of the variations in the introduction of solid foods and the ages and how that's changed over the decades. I mean, there was one point in the 1950s when it was recommended to start solid foods as early as a few weeks of age. So Jennifer is here today to share a bit about historical infant feeding practices. She's got some great anecdotes from the book. She's gonna convince you that even though you might be worrying day in and day out about your parenting and that what you're doing is damaging your baby, you are actually doing a great job. I hope you enjoy this interview with Jennifer Traig.

Katie Ferraro (5m 22s):

Please do check out her book Act Natural. And with no further ado, here is Jennifer Traig to talk about why bananas are not bad for babies, but other historical infant feeding practices that will make you laugh.

Jennifer Traig (5m 38s):

Yeah, I guess the wake up call on how we were raising our kids was when my daughter's third and fourth words were Oprah and cake respectively, and made me question how we were spending our time that it was maybe it's time to start being a little, a little healthier and watch a little less tv.

Katie Ferraro (5m 54s):

Well, does she still like Oprah and cake?

Jennifer Traig (5m 57s):

Still likes cake, but yeah, but now she is, she's more of a TikTok girl.

Katie Ferraro (6m 1s):

All right, well, like everybody else, the attention span is decreasing, actually having longer attention span than most people on TikTok. I read your whole book, when I say read, I mean I listen to it because I have a small children who don't read. But I loved your book Act Natural, a cultural history of misadventures in Parenting. I have to tell you, Jennifer, I was laughing out loud at your take and your humor and your jokes about just some of the historical parenting practices that you cover in the book. 'Cause there was kind of this theme, and I'm sure you didn't do it by accident of like throughout the ages, lots of old men telling women what to do about raising kids. And then you told these stories about some of these. So-called experts of like literally having no children of their own or actually horrible parents according to their eventually grownup children.

Katie Ferraro (6m 42s):

Do you see patterns in the parenting advice of yesteryear being reflected in today's culture in society?

Jennifer Traig (6m 47s):

That's a really good question. Well, I, I'll say one thing, which is that parenting is very new. The verb didn't exist until 1970 and that's because before then parents just weren't doing a whole lot of it. It was called child rearing and it wasn't necessarily done by the parent. In fact, if you could afford to or if you could find anyone else to do it, you did. You weren't judged for that. Having children was your job, but raising them really wasn't. And if something went wrong, you would not be blamed. It really wasn't until more recently that parents became more hands on and then acquired all the things that come along with that, like guilt and resentment.

Katie Ferraro (7m 27s):

So as I was reading the book, I started thinking about all the things like, and my parents are lovely people, but they said some stuff that probably doesn't like hold up today. One of which was when my grandparents used to say it, children are meant to be seen and not heard and like the volume level at my house. So I have a singleton who just turned 10, I have 8-year-old quadruplets and 6-year-old twins. So I had seven kids in three years and now they're just like very loud school aged children. And I always think like if my grandpa were here, he'd be like, children were meant to be seen and not heard. But like they would also say things like, go play in traffic, go play on the train tracks. Like, like we laughed about it and you would get, you know, slaughtered on social media if you ever said any of that stuff anymore. But I loved in your book you pointed out that a lot of parenting's thorniest issues like sleep resistance and picky eating began when we started trying to fix something that wasn't particularly broken.

Katie Ferraro (8m 17s):

So considering how much anxiety parents have about things like starting solid foods, where do you think that comes from and what parenting practices are actually making, learning how to eat harder?

Jennifer Traig (8m 29s):

We've definitely made eating a problem and I think we did that before in the literature, you almost never see complaints about children being picky eaters or not eating. What you do see, and you see pretty often is complaints about children eating too much. And there's a lot of that, there's a lot of concern about children wanting to eat grownup foods. There's no such thing as kids' foods yet. There's no chicken nuggets, there's no ketchup, there's no yogurt squeezers. And kids want to eat what their parents are eating and the literature is saying, no, no, no, no, no. Children's stomachs are too delicate for that. They shouldn't. And around the turn of the century a book comes out that changes things and it's by Luther Ram Holt, it is called the Care and Feeding of Young Children.

Jennifer Traig (9m 12s):

And all of a sudden he introduces the problem and the cure, a feeding plan for children that makes mothers because mothers are the ones implementing it. Very, very, very, very anxious. He has this very incredibly strict regimen for introducing foods to children and what foods they can and can't have to modern readers. It's very, very surprising because he is so abjectly against fruits and vegetables really wants you to stay away from them. They're very inappropriate for children if you must serve them. Fruits pretty much know and vegetables need to be boiled for hours and put through the sieve so that they're absolute mush.

Jennifer Traig (9m 53s):

Lettuce is okay only for older children and only if it's stressed lightly with salt. Nothing else.

Katie Ferraro (9m 58s):

What was the deal with the bananas though? I remember a part where you're like, in historically bananas were supposed to be bad for children

Jennifer Traig (10m 4s):

And this is all due to again, Luther Emmett Holt starts the banana problem. He came down against bananas. He, he warned against parents serving them. I think he's writing in about 1894 or so. So bananas have only been available in the Yo Os for about 10 years. So number one, they're very new. Number two, they looked a little different. So now we eat something called the Cavendish banana, which is more curved and the previous banana was maybe a little more anatomical and given fruits association with sin because of the Garden of Eden. That association was just too easy to make with the banana. Women were reluctant to be seen eating them in public and you certainly wouldn't feed them to your children.

Jennifer Traig (10m 47s):

All fruit was considered suspect but bananas particularly. And part of the reason is they weren't really familiar with vitamins, not really familiar with fiber. So there doesn't seem to be any good reason to eat fruit. There's no nutritional benefit.

Katie Ferraro (10m 59s):

Yeah, if it tastes good it must be bad for you. But exactly a spoiler alert, the fruit is gonna kill you. Message is like still persistent as a fallacy in the feeding space. Like I hear parents all the time like, oh my doctor told me that I need to feed the baby vegetables before fruit because the baby's gonna develop a preference for sweet taste. And I was like, have you ever like tasted your breast milk like the primary carbohydrate? And their lactose is sweet, like heads up your baby's been already exposed to this. Like bananas never killed anybody. But it's also a theme in diabetes education. I was a diabetes educator for years and parents was, oh I eat this fruit but I won't eat bananas. There's too much sugar. And it's like, you know, your average serving a fruit has about 15 grams of naturally occurring sugar and this is totally different than high fructose corn syrup.

Katie Ferraro (11m 42s):

So it's funny, like we can blame him for starting it, but it hasn't gone away yet. The fear of bananas.

Jennifer Traig (11m 48s):

Interesting. Yeah. Okay. So and then like non-organic bananas are, you know, terrifying too, right? What could be on them?

Katie Ferraro (11m 54s):

Yeah, I mean but like, you know, gimme an idea of like a perfect first food for a baby. There is no perfect first food, lots of foods that work for babies, but bananas are fantastic 'cause they come in their own like aseptic packaging, you know, you don't have to do anything with them, just cut 'em into spears and the baby can pick it up and eat it. But my favorite section of your book, Act Natural was of course like the feeding practices over time. And I wanna start with the very first taste of the first milk a mother produces, which is colostrum. So colostrum was not always considered the liquid gold that it is today. What was the advice about feeding colostrum in the past?

Jennifer Traig (12m 24s):

It was very bad and it starts with Galen and Hippocrates and Aristotle and they all say this is poison. Do not have it for a few reasons. So one, because they don't understand what it is and they think that milk is a menstrual blood that's been made white by heat or by the father semen. So they don't know what they're working with. And then a little bit later plu tart comes along Sarus who's a first century physician and he continues to say, no, no, no, no colostrum, they notice that it looks different from other milk that it's.

Katie Ferraro (13m 3s):

Wow how observant of you old men.

Jennifer Traig (13m 5s):

Right? And they call it it, they say basically it's two cheese, like in little tiny babies aren't ready to have such rich food, such cheesy food. So one of the things that they recommend instead is watered down wine. Which is, which is not a great substitute for colostrum.

Katie Ferraro (13m 21s):

Hey, we're gonna take a quick break but I'll be right back. What were some of the other, I was like trying to write them down but there was just too many in your book you go through just some bizarre infant feeding practices from the past. Like I just want parents to hear about them and be like, oh this is not the, you know, this whole idea of feeding babies foods, like it seems so controversial these days to have babies eat real food but like they did wild stuff back in the day to their babies.

Jennifer Traig (13m 51s):

Yeah, they really did. And you know, before the days of formula, if you couldn't breastfeed your baby, you, you did have options and you might choose a wet nurse, but there were times where there just weren't enough wet nurses certainly in founding homes and some founding homes turned to goats, had the children nurse from goats directly in the crib.

Katie Ferraro (14m 12s):

I can't even imagine I was, I thought you made that up. But that's real.

Jennifer Traig (14m 19s):

Wet nurses often gave their children syphilis and goats tended not to have syphilis.

Katie Ferraro (14m 24s):

Oh wow. There's an advantage there. Okay. Other feeding practices that we might consider bizarre today that you can think of.

Jennifer Traig (14m 29s):

The fifties is really weird for a few reasons. And part of it is that suddenly processed food becomes widely available and one of the biggest markets for that is children children's food hadn't existed before and now there's sugar cereals and there's candy and tater tots are invented and ranch dressing and all this stuff that kids just love, love, love. And there's also food that's created just for kids. Baby food comes along a little bit earlier, but it's being marketed more and it's strange to notice that it's right around this time that the timeline for introducing your kids to solid foods suddenly accelerates dramatically before doctors said about a year and now they're saying like four weeks.

Jennifer Traig (15m 12s):

There's one doctor in particular, Walter Sackett who I think it's like my second or third week, he wants your kid on solids by nine weeks they should be eating bacon and eggs and he doesn't want them weirdly enough to have milk 'cause he says there's too much fat in it. It's after one year no milk and instead wants you to serve your children coffee. And for parents who are uptight about the caffeine, he says you can substitute Stanka.

Katie Ferraro (15m 38s):

The history of the timeline and the introduction of solid foods. Did you by any chance use Amy Bentley's book Inventing Baby Food as a resource for Yeah. Okay. That book is fantastic. She's been on the podcast, I wish she would just continue writing about baby food but it's just, it's so fascinating. And she has a chart in her book and actually if you look at the like attribution, I think she had one of her kids draw it, but it was basically like average age of introduction of solid foods over the decades. And yeah, back in the fifties it was a couple of weeks and then every time I used that in her presentations with her permission of course and people would be like, oh wait, I think you have a typo there. I think you meant like a couple of months. It's like, no, no, no, no that's not a typo. They were literally recommending those foods at a couple of weeks of age.

Katie Ferraro (16m 18s):

And you know, obviously things change in research changes. I think right now I know as a breastfeeding advocate and specialists in introduction of solid foods, like we always tell parents like, you know, your breast milk is all your baby needs for the first six months of life. Or of course infant formula if you can't or don't wanna breastfeed. But parents are still so confused 'cause they're still getting a lot of misinformation. Doctors will say things very outdated information like, you know, why don't you go ahead and start solid foods anywhere between four to six months. Well a four month old baby can't even set up on their own. So they're not safe to swallow anything except infant milk. Not to mention that's a total anti breastfeeding message. 'Cause if outta one side of your mouth you're telling them to exclusively breastfeed for six months. And then the other side being like, but also start solid foods like the parents think, they feel like their breast milk is insufficient.

Katie Ferraro (16m 58s):

And I think a lot of the, the anecdotes in your book, there's a lot of humor, a lot of tongue in cheek, but like this is really anxiety inducing stuff for parents and they do get a lot of misinformation from the So-called experts and I was just curious if, did you interview current day feeding practices or was the book kind of more just to look at like historical practices?

Jennifer Traig (17m 19s):

Yeah, it was, it pretty historical. I mean I, I started this project because I teach at University of Michigan, I, I don't have a lot of skills that turn out to be transferable to raising children. Neither does my husband the one. But the one thing we can do is a literature review. And so when we were struggling with brand new babies and didn't know how to take care of them and didn't know it would be this hard, we started reading about what people used to do and it was shocking because they did such crazy things. And the one message that came through loud and clear is the bar is really low that people have done terrible things and we have survived. And I found that enormously comforting.

Katie Ferraro (17m 55s):

And then you decided to write a book about it.

Jennifer Traig (17m 58s):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So other people could know that our ancestors did much, much, much worse things than we're doing now.

Katie Ferraro (18m 3s):

And I loved all the feeding stuff, but you really covered a vast area of different aspects of parenting. One of my favorite parts was the research that you were talking about, about letting kids fight it out and why interfering in your kids' squabbles isn't ideal. I'm like literally listening to this as I'm doing the dishes and hearing my kids fighting in the back. And I could just picture the sociologists in the studies that you were describing, who would, they would analyze like the average number of fights per hour and a household they'd have like listening devices in the house. And I just have to say it was making me feel pretty good about my own family situation, but I kept thinking like, how much time did Jennifer spend like reading all of these source documents? Like how long did it take you to research for this book? Because you really covered quite the gambit of history and topics in parenting history for this book.

Jennifer Traig (18m 45s):

I spent about five years on it. I wrote it when my, my kids were small so I, it kind of grew up with them. Yeah. And I finished by the time they were in like elementary school.

Katie Ferraro (18m 56s):

Okay now that they're teenagers and they come, you know, accuse you of doing something. Do you say like, well at least I didn't do you know x, Y, z like they did back in Aristotle's day. They

Jennifer Traig (19m 5s):

Have absolutely no interest in my work. Yeah, no they don't wanna hear it.

Katie Ferraro (19m 10s):

Same. Okay. So you conclude by saying if I've learned anything it's that barring the really awful stuff, things mostly turn out fine and the ones that don't, were beyond our control anyway. Is there anything that you would say to a new parent who is stressing out about their baby starting solid foods that you think could alleviate some of their anxiety based on what you learned researching for this book for five years?

Jennifer Traig (19m 30s):

Yeah, when I got through a Bush present, which was very on brand, I, my husband gave me a book by Jerome Kagan who's a psychologist at, at Harvard called Three Seductive Ideas. And it's basically about how hard it is to mess up your children and, and one of the three seductive ideas is arguing against infant determinism. The idea that like you're in this really crucial window and it closes and that the choices you make now are gonna shape the rest of their lives. And the book really convinced me that, no, it's a special time, it's a magical time, but you're not gonna scar your kids for life. You know, you're not gonna make them a picky eater. You're, it's hard to really mess it up.

Katie Ferraro (20m 6s):

I know, but I think that like I love how like pragmatic that statement is, but I think it really flies in the face of what new parents today are hearing. Like everything's about trauma. Everything is about like, you are literally going to inflict lifelong damage on your kid if you feed them formula. I mean everything's so dramatic. And also by the way, people aren't spending five years researching topics like you do. They're spending three seconds on TikTok and like, oh, oh I know everything about colostrum. It's like really from social media. So I just have to say I very much appreciate the work that authors like yourself do. Like it was such a well thoroughly well researched book. I did wanna ask you before we go, Clara Davis, can you just like, my dream goal is to like go back in time and just be a fly on the wall in Clara Davis' experiment where she's letting, I mean I know it's not good that she was working with orphans and there would obviously you'd never be able to reproduce or study today, but like just letting them go buck wild, be put the 100 foods out on the table and be like, which ones did they eat?

Katie Ferraro (21m 4s):

Like tell us a little bit about that. 'Cause to me that's the most fascinating historical study that will never be recreated again.

Jennifer Traig (21m 12s):

Right. So this is in 1926 and it's a pediatrician, Canadian pediatrician named Claire Davis. And she starts this experiment. She does it first in Cleveland, then it moves to Chicago. She gets a cohort of babies, two of them she ends up adopting later and she gets these babies from indigent teen moms and widows and the children come to live in a hospital where the experiment is being conducted. And basically it just consists of caregivers putting out a wide assortment of, I think it's a list of a 100 foods, which of course the list of a 100 First Foods. I think there's probably a lot of overlap with that. A list of a hundred unprocessed foods.

Jennifer Traig (21m 53s):

And the caregivers are instructed to just let the kids pick whatever they want. And these are, I think they're like in the one to 2-year-old range, I can't remember exactly, but they're, they're little at first the children make some strange choices. They seem to have a little trouble distinguishing between what is food and what isn't food trying to eat, you know, the silverware. There are children just grabbing handfuls of salt and then they find the food and, and they'll go on jags like, you know, one kid will eat a dozen oranges in a sitting. But what they find is it really evens out and that if you provide healthy, nutritious food for children, they eat a healthy nutritious diet.

Jennifer Traig (22m 34s):

They, she called it body wisdom that they would crave the things that their bodies needed. The one thing it didn't tell us is if kids will eat a healthy, nutritious diet when they have AdChoices not to, she wanted to do a follow-up study that would include processed foods, but the de depression intervened and she never got to do it.

Katie Ferraro (22m 51s):

And didn't it like she lose all of her records? Like wasn't there a fire And like you can't even find like the original data sets and stuff now. Yeah,

Jennifer Traig (22m 58s):

That sounds right. Yeah.

Katie Ferraro (22m 59s):

Oh wow. It was something again that we'll never see in our lifetime but I, I appreciate you going and kind of digging that up and making it a little bit more palatable for parents today to be like, oh, okay, so I don't need to micromanage every single thing that my kid eats. So what do you think about parenting in 2024 that like what's happening right now that authors like you in the future We'll look back at and literally laugh at us for having believed or actually inflicted on our kids. Like what's jumping out at you right now? 'Cause you've got a 13 and a 15-year-old. If you have like a friend at school or a colleague who's a new mom, like you're like, oh my gosh, this is hilarious that you're doing this.

Jennifer Traig (23m 30s):

Yeah, my husband and I play a game called How are we ruining our Children Doing the things that we just, we can't see it because we're in it. The terrible choices that we're making that we just can't see. Part of the reason we play this is because our parents who loved us and were good people made crazy choices. But, you know, my father was a chest surgeon, my mother was a, a nurse, she smoked while she nursed me. Like, and they insist that they did not know that this was an unhealthy thing to do. So the thing that we did with our kids that I now then continue to do with our kids that I think they later will wonder what we were thinking is, is the unchecked phone use that it, the screen's everywhere all the time and we don't really know what effect it's having on them.

Jennifer Traig (24m 11s):

I think that's the thing that they'll judge us for and probably rightly so.

Katie Ferraro (24m 19s):

Hey, we're gonna take a quick break, but I'll be right back. Jennifer, what's the next project that you're working on and are there any other parenting books in the future for you?

Jennifer Traig (24m 33s):

Sort of, I mean I work a history of monsters but it's domestic monsters, so boogeyman and things that go on. So no,

Katie Ferraro (24m 39s):

No like Loch Nest stuff that you're sticking straight up to the US.

Jennifer Traig (24m 45s):

Or it's gonna be, there's a little, a little Dracula, a little Frankenstein. I think Frankenstein is really about pregnancy and motherhood. So I'll be writing about Frankenstein as well.

Katie Ferraro (24m 54s):

We'll have to have you back on when, when that comes out. 'Cause I'd love to see you tell other moms that they're like Frankenstein. Jennifer, I always like to ask authors your book Act Natural, a History of Misadventures in Parenting, where do you want people to buy it from? Like what's the most beneficial to you if we go here or there? Or your website? Or does it not really matter? Just get the book.

Jennifer Traig (25m 14s):

Yeah, I, I have to say, you know, it's good to support your local bookstore, but wherever you find it I'm glad to have you read it.

Katie Ferraro (25m 21s):

You so obviously live in Ann Arbor where they probably still have a local bookstore.

Jennifer Traig (25m 25s):

We just got one back. We did, we had, we didn't for a while but we, for the past five years we have again. Yeah.

Katie Ferraro (25m 30s):

Awesome. Well thank you so much for sharing your time and I really appreciate the anecdotes and I'll link to the book in the show notes so people can check it out. But it's really a great read. If you're feeling at all overwhelmed by starting solid foods with your kids, don't worry, you're not gonna mess it up. They did way worse things back in the day and we all turned out

Jennifer Traig (25m 46s):

Fine. Thanks very much for having me.

Katie Ferraro (25m 49s):

Well I hope you enjoyed that interview with Jennifer Reg. She, you always wondered like when you read a book and you think someone's funny, I'm like, I wonder if they're actually really funny in real life. She was hysterical, very dry, great sense of humor, really good recall too. 'Cause she's just a great storyteller. So some of the anecdotes that she told in the interview, they're a little bit longer and she kind of draws 'em out and puts all the historical references there, but they're there in the book too. I can't recommend her book Act Natural Enough. The subtitle is A Cultural History of Misadventures in Parenting. You can get it wherever you get books. I will link to it on the show notes page for this episode, which you can find at blwpodcast.com/458. And a special thank you to our partners at AirWave Media.

Katie Ferraro (26m 29s):

If you like podcasts that feature food and science and using your brain, check out some of the podcasts from AirWave. We are online at blwpodcast.com. Thanks so much for listening and I'll see you next time.