Is Cow's Milk a Must for Toddlers? with Sophie Egan

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Sophie Egan (31s):

You likely are foregoing that for very good reasons, like stomach cramps, deep discomfort, diarrhea, bloating. So that's like a no brainer and it's deeply disturbing to me in a lot of ways, the guilt and pressure to even overcome those physical discomforts for the sake of what you're being told. So listen to your body. Lean into the fact that like you and your kids are not in having a good experience drinking milk and know rest assured that there are many other ways to make sure that your kid is getting the nutrients that they need.

Katie Ferraro (1m 2s):

Hey there, I'm Katie Ferraro, registered dietitian, college nutrition professor and mom of seven specializing in baby-led weaning Here on the Baby-Led Weaning with Katie Ferraro podcast. I help you strip out all of the noise and nonsense about feeding, giving you the confidence and knowledge you need to give your baby a safe start to solid foods using baby-led weaning. Have you ever wondered why we're told to switch our babies to cow's milk at age one? Is this something we have to do or is it just one of many options when it comes to this whole thing about switch to whole cow's milk at age one? I'm reminded of a friend of mine who's also a dietitian.

Katie Ferraro (1m 43s):

She's a mom of two girls and her kids never drank milk. And guess what? They are totally fine. These are also the same two kids who did not get their first tooth until after age one, but they were both able to eat 100 Foods before they turned one. So just a reminder that not every baby or child needs to follow the same exact trajectory when it comes to food and nutrition and growth. So today's episode is all about this idea of cow's milk when your baby turns one. And this question is cow's milk a must for toddlers? Because we're often told as parents, you know, your pediatrician or you know, older people who've already had children, your mother and mother-in-law, they say, oh no switching to cow's milk. That's just part of the toddler transition, something that every baby is supposed to do after their first birthday.

Katie Ferraro (2m 25s):

But there are lots of reasons why a family might choose to opt out of cow's milk. And of course not all of them are about nutrition, right? Some are cultural, environmental, or just personal preference. So to help unpack this idea, I'm joined today by Sophie Egan. Sophie is a food writer and she's the author of the book, how to Be a Conscious Eater, making Food Choices That Are Good For You, others and The Planet. So Sophie's work, and I know her from, we both went to UC, Berkeley for our public health program and right, right outta grad school she was writing books and I've followed her work. She does really interesting work focusing on the intersection of food, culture, health and sustainability. And she's gonna talk about that kind of buzzword sustainability and what does that mean to us as parents as we're like in the grocery store aisle, which to be honest, the milk, the yogurt aisle's so overwhelming these days.

Katie Ferraro (3m 9s):

Like is there a sustainable choice out there? Sophie is a mom of twin boys, they're in kindergarten now. She's gonna talk a little bit about them and how you know her choices changed when she had kids regarding selection of certain types of foods, including milk. And she's gonna bring this really thoughtful lens of how we think about the foods that we feed our families and what they mean for the bigger picture. Sophie's also the co-author, co-founder of a new newsletter called Climate Kitchen. I recently signed up is really good. She's really smart, but really interesting. I think she has just a great way of making a lot of these kind of complicated topics that you know, where food meets with sustainability, environmentalism, and nutrition, and kind of boils it down for, you know, what's your need to know, take on it, what's her need to know?

Katie Ferraro (3m 51s):

Take on it for us. So check out the newsletter that'll be in the show notes page and under the description of this episode, if you're not already following the podcast, please do subscribe So that both of the weekly episodes are released. Show up in your feed. I do a mini training episode every Monday, a longer feeding expert interview with someone like Sophie every Thursday. So please do describe if you have a mom friend who's also starting solid foods soon, please tell her about the Baby-Led Weaning Katie Ferraro podcast. I love, Sophie actually told me that she sent the 100 First Foods list to over a hundred people at this point, like friends who are starting solid foods. She said she had so much fun doing that approach with her twins. In today's episode, we're gonna dive into is Cows milk a must for toddler? So with no further ado, I'm really excited to introduce you to Sophie Egan.

Sophie Egan (4m 39s):

In 2019, I gave birth to identical twin boys, Aiden and Elliot. And I literally went for a run on a Monday morning and was admitted to the hospital later that day. And my boys were born eight weeks early, which means we spent two months living in the NICU at UC, San Francisco. God bless the amazing nurses and medical geniuses there who took amazing care of my tiny, teeny, teeny little babies. But you know, they had to use a feeding tube for a long time and it ingrained in my husband, in me just this real, I think like, you know, biological urge to just make sure they got enough to eat, period.

Sophie Egan (5m 23s):

Didn't care that much at the time about what it was. It was just about can they become healthy, thriving boys, right? And I'm so pleased today they're six years old that they are, but it was also that we got into a huge habit of, I mean I was making a lot of breast milk at that time, a lot in the freezer, but it just really was about pumping them with calories and and nutrients obviously, that we got into this habit also of just buying cow's milk pretty much right off the bat. Once it was time to make that transition, because it was automatic, it was like, well we've been feeding them this many mil, you know, milligram liters of milk day after day after day, they sleep through the night, all that.

Sophie Egan (6m 5s):

And we just kept buying it. And then, you know, at a certain point I kind of stopped myself in the grocery store and everything I'd been writing about water footprint, carbon footprint of milk, also the cost of milk was really kind of hitting me like 6 99 for, you know, horizon, whatever, organic milk. It just really adds up and it made me stop and ask myself why? Why am I giving them all of this cow's milk when I know the environmental impacts? And also, is it even like the magic elixir that everyone's always told me it is. And what really stopped me in my tracks was I saw this certain type of of milk called growing years and I'm like, oh my gosh, they've totally got me hooked.

Sophie Egan (6m 47s):

It's saying, you know, this is gonna, this is how you're gonna grow your baby. Like you got me, I want my babies to grow because I still had that carryover from the little tiny feeble time in the Nicu. But it also made me wonder like, is this a response to the rise of plant milks? Like is that just how they're trying to stay competitive? So that really sparked a lot of questions for me and and actually led to writing a Washington Post article to try to answer the question, is the science really there or is it all just hype?

Katie Ferraro (7m 14s):

That's so funny that you say it really just kinda made you stop and realize like, why am I doing this? I know my mom is also a dietitian and I remember being a kid, like she's old school, home ec dietitian, USDA dairy guidelines, three cups of milk a day for everybody, no matter, you know, if you're lactose intolerant. And remember her saying like, okay, hypothetical, if you are on a desert island and there was only one food that you could pick to have, like what would be the most nutritious food that could sustain you? And we are like, well obviously it's milk because there's fat, there's protein, there is carbohydrate. Like if you think about it. But like the reality is we do not live on a desert island and there's lots of other ways to get those nutrients. So I know you write a lot about how our food choices impact the planet. And I'm curious 'cause from a sustainability perspective, how does cow's milk stack up against the other options like plant-based milks or even just water for kids?

Katie Ferraro (7m 59s):

And just to be clear, we're talking about after 12 months of age, acknowledging the importance of breast milk and or infant formula up until a child's able to get most of their nutrition. But beyond that one year mark, like parents have questions.

Sophie Egan (8m 9s):

Yeah, absolutely. So zooming now, right? First we just have to say even what does it mean to take a sustainability perspective? Because if I have learned one thing in my career, it's that sustainability means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. So the short version I would say is that for the planet, carbon emissions are one metric, and we can talk more about other metrics, but in general, foods from the planet kingdom tend to be better for the planet from an emissions perspective, water perspective as well, land use. And they also tend to be better for, for humans. So that's kind of, doesn't mean all or nothing, but that's a, a general consensus, right?

Sophie Egan (8m 49s):

Within the realm of animal-based foods, at the very top kind of worst environmental impact wise is meat. You've probably heard about red meat in particular, but pretty much right after meat is dairy and milk is a form of dairy. And so in general, cow's milk in, in general foods from animals are more resource intensive because you have to grow stuff to feed the animals that you then eat or consume products from as opposed to just eating the stuff that you grow, right? Like berries or wheat or chickpeas or lentils or name your plant-based food. So that's kind of just the broad strokes of animal and plant.

Sophie Egan (9m 31s):

And as far as cow's milk versus other plant milks, which if you've seen the grocery shelves lately, there's every form of milk possible. And, and thank God for that because they're, a lot of them are really great. But the more common ones, I'll say that you know, in general, cow's milk has a much higher carbon water footprint than other plant plant milk. So even something like almond milk, which gets a bad wrap for water, it's actually a lot less water than than cow's milk. Soy milk stacks up really well in general requiring about a six and a half as much water as as cow's milk and then emissions wise a lot better.

Sophie Egan (10m 12s):

There was an interesting analysis recently actually from World Resources Institute that now includes pea milk and, and shows that pea milk comes out as as actually one of the best. But in general from from cows, part of the, the issue in particular for cow's milk is that they eat so much of their diet is alfalfa, which is a super water intensive crop.

Katie Ferraro (10m 39s):

Hey, we're gonna take a quick break, but I'll be right back.

Momcozy (10m 39s):

One of my friends who recently had a baby is really committed to breastfeeding but also really struggling with pumping. And I went with her to her lactation appointment the other day because I'm also working on my I-B-C-L-C breastfeeding credential right now too. So she let me sit in on the session and they were helping her with her pump, which a friend had given to her. And it was like a really big kind of contraption, had all these wires, it was loud, it was uncomfortable, and it was thinking about, gosh, how far breast pump technology has come these days and how excited I was to tell her about the Air 1 , which is the ultra slim breast pump from momcozy. So this is a brand trusted by over 3 million moms. So they have this thing figured out and the Air 1 is designed for busy moms on the go. It's ultra slim discreet. Finally a pump that will not slow you down if you're a busy mom on the go. It's got this really cool smart app control. So you sync your momcozy app to the pump, it automatically can help you switch between pumping modes, it tracks milk volume in real time. You get full collector notifications. So it's like hands-free tech enabled solution that makes pumping more efficient and effortless for today's busy mom. The Air 1 has a silent pumping mode. It actually operates under 45 decibels. So you have quiet, discreet pumping, which is great for office spaces or public spaces or if you're going back to work. It has a skin friendly comfort design made with this amazing soft silicone. It's finally a pleasant experience that fits all breast shapes and it's not gonna irritate her skin. There's only five parts to this pump too, to clean, which is amazing. The Air 1 is easy to assemble and maintain. It saves you time while keeping things clean. Now MomCozy sent me an Air 1 ahead of this ad read. I checked it out, I was like fascinated by the technology, but I do not need it since my pumping days are far behind me. So I gave it to my friend who has been raving about it. Air 1 is available now at target.com or at your nearest target store. That's the MomCozy Air 1 Ultra Slim Breast Pump. Available now at target.com or at your nearest target store and you can learn more at momcozy.com.

Katie Ferraro (12m 47s):

So interesting that you mentioned that pea milk, because you do a lot of content on milk based alternatives. If you're not having milk products, dairy products for whatever reason be that, and again, I'm coming from the nutrition standpoint. So you have a cow's milk protein allergy or that's a vegan family, or they don't eat animal products for religious ethical reasons, you know, asking a lot of questions. It's so crazy though. But a lot of those products when they are marketed to kids at their core might be quote unquote sustainable. And as you pointed out, that's a very nuanced term, but there's added sugar in them and it's kind of like there's a lot of other stuff in there to get that to a thickness standpoint and a portability standpoint and a taste flavor point. It's like at what point, you know, how do you counsel parents on balancing that? Like, I wanna do what's right for the environment, but from a nutritional standpoint, like pea milk, the one market, the most popular one, marketing to children, that it has added sugar and parents of one year olds are feeding this.

Katie Ferraro (13m 34s):

Like when we clearly know the benefits of withholding and abstaining from added sugars, at least until age two. You know, that's kind of a conundrum for parents. 'cause that that quote unquote milk aisle is very overwhelming right now.

Sophie Egan (13m 46s):

Yeah, I mean I think it is such important context that you, that you just shared because a general rule that I always try to advocate that I, I've gleaned from a lot of scientists, you know, nutrition experts over the years is it comes down to, as opposed to what, right? If you don't, you can't take a food in isolation. It's always either replacing something or being replaced by something else, right? Unless you're talking about just abstaining from food in general, which is usually not what you're talking about. So if it's about replacing water or other nutritious foods, that's not a good trait, right? From the standpoint of like, should I give my kid milk or not? Like the general guidance from scientific experts in the US there's a consensus paper about this is that plain unsweetened, low fat cows milk.

Sophie Egan (14m 32s):

And there's a whole chart we can get into the details of that if you want. And water really water are the healthiest drip beverages, poor children. And it's so easy for that to get lost in the conversation. But if we're talking about what is often consumed instead it's juice, it's soda, it's other sugar sweetened, even plant milks like you're saying. And in those cases then actually cow's milk, plain cow's milk, I could just mention or plain fortified soy milk is the one that's most recommended as is if you are choosing a plant-based option, then it actually is a far better choice. So often I, I really try to emphasize that it comes down to that comparison of what would you be, what beverage would be being served instead, right?

Sophie Egan (15m 16s):

And you know, I think it's important also just to, to take it out of even the beverage context for a second, right? Part of why parents love milk and I got into this myself, is that a lot of kids like it and they consume it and half the time you're just worried about shoving nutrients, you know, getting nutrients down the hatch, so to speak, right? I mean, I'm obviously being hyperbolic, but in all seriousness, we understand about picky eating and so it's a very efficient delivery mechanism. Milk, like you just said about, you know, and it has a lot of nutrients in it. Cow's milk does. So there, there are some good reasons, right, why someone, a parent would want to choose regular cow's milk for their child, combination of MI vitamins and minerals, protein, calcium, potassium, phosphorus, vitamin B12, you're the dietitian so you can go, yeah,

Katie Ferraro (16m 3s):

Subsidies, price, availability, like family habits, food culture, I mean it's, it's loaded.

Sophie Egan (16m 10s):

Yeah, loaded, exactly. But it's not the only way to nourish your kid. Or the other thing that is often kind of marketed around is that it's the way to ensure that your kid grows to their optimal height. And that's where the science they dug into on a re Washington Post article was really interesting because what it boiled down to was, does it help your kid grow? Yes. But it was like a fraction of an inch compared to what they would grow otherwise. And it's interesting because it's actually only even making kind of a, a slightly bigger difference when the child is nutrient deficient. So when it comes to kind of health disparities access to other nutritious foods, that's where actually eating, that's where that height difference can, can, you can make a better case for the height difference sort of attributable to cow's milk.

Sophie Egan (16m 60s):

But in the context where folks are generally eating a mix of, you know, healthy foods, then it's really quite marginal and, and essentially there's, there's no, nothing you're missing out on.

Katie Ferraro (17m 11s):

The conversation about height kind of reminds me about like the argument regarding bone density. So I know we both went to Cal for our MPH and when I was there Walter Willett came noted nutritional epidemiologist and he just, you know, kind of blew our minds. Like all you dietitians are standing around here talking about how this is good for your health. Like look at the countries with the greatest longevity, the lowest rates of, you know, hip fracture in adults, you know, low bone mineral density, they don't drink any cow's milk like they're out in the sun on occasion, not sitting inside behind a computer all day long. But like there's a lot of other factors at play. Like there's more than one way to skin a cat. Like there's more than one way to achieve these nutrients and you guys kind of need to wake up to this, this because yeah, this idea of like, oh you might get that like half inch advantage, but like at what cost?

Katie Ferraro (17m 54s):

Like I know as parents of young children like you are fully aware, they drink a lot of milk, they're not going to eat the freaking food that you're making. Like milk and snacks are, in my opinion, like the two largest saboteurs of the toddler diet. Like if you can cut them out or cut way back on them, guess what? They feel a little casual hunger at meal times and they're actually interested in eating. So I think we kind of sometimes put this like this, such a valuable food. And I wanted to ask you from a marketing standpoint, since you've done the background on this, where does that notion or that idea that, oh well we just at one, you just make the switch, right? You were doing breast milk or formula? Keep breastfeeding if you can, great. But especially if you're formula feeding, you can knock that off and we just go to whole milk cows milk. Like is that, you know, USDA policy over the years?

Katie Ferraro (18m 36s):

Is that marketing? Is that, where did that come from?

Sophie Egan (18m 39s):

Well, I was on a, a different podcast pressure cooker talking about this and they did a really good kind of investigative, you know, journalistic deep dive in into a lot of that and, and certainly got milk. We've all seen that campaign, long history of the dairy lobby and, and milk industry promoting it to me the best place to look for for where some of this hierarchy comes. So a lot of that marketing, yes, we absolutely were told like this is the key to, to height bone density as you mentioned, also been talked about like you won't be able to get calcium and vitamin D in your, in your kid, you know, in any other form. And, and so sort of the, the concept of like equating it to those nutrients like as the one source, but beyond those, to me as a parent now with kids in, in kindergarten, I think the school lunch program is a really good place to look because what are the beverages served in school lunch?

Sophie Egan (19m 31s):

It's, you know, if you're lucky and there's no soda and juice and all these other worst things or flavored milks even in, you know, my school, which is one of the best in the whole country, Boulder Valley School district, it's milk and water. And that's good on the one hand, but you also have to think about what queue is that sending, right? It's saying that this, it, it just gets higher status, right? It gets higher status in, in the, the social hierarchy, social construct of, of children in schools and then the total volume is massive that's just being procured. So I think it's kind of that mix of it being institutionalized, right? In the places where kids are, are getting foods, it's clearly in, in pricing and in subsidies and so forth.

Sophie Egan (20m 14s):

And then it's obviously in, in the marketing and the zeitgeist. The other thing I'll just say that I think is really relevant in encountering this is I just can't, you know, as as I, as I've learned about like the rates of lactose intolerance, especially in children of color, I really don't know how long that the, you know, as a country where you kind of justify the, the place of that because you imagine

Katie Ferraro (20m 40s):

Yeah, right at the top of the plate, the cup of milk, it's like there's a vast majority of people in this country who cannot physiologically tolerate the milk sugar in there. Like what are we saying? Like, oh but you need to drink. I mean, but I mean that, I guess that's the conversation for another time, how messed up the dietary guidelines are. But you're right, it's like, it's like right there in National Nutrition Month and I'm doing some girl scout things for my daughter's troop and it's like all the my plate stuff and it's like who in this room drinks milk and like less than half of the kids do. It's like, well is this saying we have to, I mean that visual makes it very obvious. Like this is what you should be drinking. You're right. Just like your kid's school. I'm curious in your kid's school district is their flavored milk.

Sophie Egan (21m 16s):

No. Which I really appreciate.

Katie Ferraro (21m 18s):

That's amazing. 'cause our school, my kids go to parochial school and they actually just, my mom actually started the milk program. My kids go to the same school I went to, my mom started the milk program there, there was no chocolate or strawberry milk. They just discontinued the milk program because the conflict of should we take the flavored milk away? It's like let's just take all the milk away and like, okay, wow. I mean, but again, we're harkening back to an era, like if you think about the history of nutrition assistance programs in this country, it was in a time of scarcity when we needed those nutrients. We are dealing with a completely vastly different situation where there's, there's too many of all of these nutrients and we don't need milk. And I want, I want parents to hear that, 'cause I say from a nutrition standpoint, but from the cultural, the ethical, the environmental reasons. What do you say to parents Sophie, who feel guilty or worried if they decide to buck that traditional milk route and they don't wanna do cows milk?

Sophie Egan (22m 5s):

Yeah, what I say is, look, first of all, if you are in the 95% of Asian Americans, the 80 to 100% of indigenous Americans, the 80% of African Americans, Ashkenazi Jews, Latinos like you likely are foregoing that for very good reasons like stomach cramps, deep discomfort, diarrhea, bloating. So that's like a no brainer. And and it's deeply disturbing to me in a lot of ways the guilt and pressure to even, you know, kind of overcome those physical discomforts for the sake of what you're being told. So listen to your body, lean into the fact that like you are not, you and your kids are not in having a good experience drinking milk and know, rest assured that there are many other ways to make sure that your kid is getting the nutrients that they need.

Sophie Egan (22m 53s):

So that could again, just include a variety of foods that have calcium and vitamin D, which are the main kind of ones of, of concern. Protein in general is overstated culturally as an area of concern. In fact the the one you know that's interesting is, is fiber is one that's like not talked about as much, but is actually even of, you know, is actually of concern. So my point is protein gets more of the airtime and and the attention and is a big part of, again, of why people are so worried about having enough milk. But most kids and adults are, are getting enough protein. Like in general they're, they're good. The other thing I would say is just that it, it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Like I think it, it can feel like this, do I do it or not?

Sophie Egan (23m 36s):

And I think the dose matters, right? So and what you were saying too about the saboteurs Katie, I think is so true. I even just as a small note for myself, I really tried to just dial back how much milk my, my kids are eating based on when I offer it. So it's not every meal and it's also not at the beginning of the meal, it's like dessert basically. Once they've had a plate where when they were most hungry, the minute they sit down they're eating that variety of foods. And a really interesting article recently that I think again also leans into opting for more of these kind of, you know, mix of healthy foods as the way to to, to get the nutrients that your kids need versus the sort of silver bullet concept with with milk, which is about texture.

Sophie Egan (24m 20s):

And it was actually written by Bee Wilson, I dunno if you saw this, this amazing author of First Bite, but what it was so fascinating, it was actually about ultra processed foods. And I'm not saying that milk flavored milks, So I would put in that category but you know, regular milk, maybe not. But it was more just that once you're, if you, if you kind of over index on one food as a kid, including you know, something like the purees and pouches and so forth, kids can't develop, I mean you've written about this, Katie can't develop the jaw strength, there's tooth decay, there's all kinds of things to worry about. So I think there's just an also, you know, keeping in mind again like the role of beverages period in a healthy diet for your child

Katie Ferraro (24m 59s):

And b Wilson you everyone writing we're making the same point here. It's exactly what we're trying to drive home with the whole 100 First Foods approach to starting solid foods is, you know, if you look at conventional adult led spoon feeding these children who are sucking basically applesauce out of a pouch, they have at most eight, maybe 10 foods by the time they turn one. And we all know the inevitability of picky eating that sets in in the second year of life, like picky eating is not a problem to be fixed. It's developmentally appropriate. But if your child only has eight or 10 foods and you lose those eight or 10 foods to picky eating, you know, because they've only ever slurped or sucked or swallowed without ever having to chew their nutrients, that becomes a very challenging child to feed. You know, those are the kiddos that end up in feeding therapy. But if your baby has 100 Foods they can eat and then you lose eight or 10 of them to picky eating, it's really not that big of a deal, right?

Katie Ferraro (25m 43s):

'cause you still have 92 or 90 foods they can eat. So this whole idea of of experimenting with different textures and I love your point that like it doesn't have to be so black or white. And I try to teach parents that as well. It's like listen, you don't have to go look for the straight substitute. We're not doing cow's milk because of X so what should we have instead? Well there's lots of different foods that provide protein, carbohydrate, fat, vitamin A, vitamin D and like don't, like you said over index the the focus on protein and that undeserved health halo is it's really forefront in parents' mind and they think, well milk is just an easy way 'cause they're only eating fruit right now and I'll throw the milk in 'cause that's the way they'll get protein. And it's like there's lots of other ways for children to get protein. Yeah. And there's nothing far superior about milk. I think we're on the same page there.

Katie Ferraro (26m 24s):

I wanna go back to something you said earlier regarding like the definition of the term sustainable. How do you define that? And you kind of already told us like cow's milk, you know, in that framework is not ideal. Are there other animal products or other formations of dairy, I guess I should say if you're concerned about the protein, the vitamin A D, calcium that are better for the environment or more sustainable than fluid? Whole milk cows milk.

Sophie Egan (26m 49s):

Yeah, so again, you know, if you look at the kind of plant milks section, right, of the, the grocery store. So certainly for both nutrition and environment fortified, unflavored, unsweetened soy milk is going to be the best option from again, human and planetary health perspective. And just to go back to what I counsel parents or if I, you know, give that advice, if you are looking for that one-to-one substitute, it's really the most comparable in terms of calcium and vitamin D and again, environmentally quite quite good. There are others that rank pretty well. I think I meant, we talked about, you know, pea milk from an environmental perspective, but we gotta watch out for the sweeteners.

Sophie Egan (27m 29s):

Oat milk, same thing. And then almond milk as well. The other thing though, as far as like definitions of sustainability, I think it's important. So in, in my most recent book, how to be a Conscious Eater, it's about making food choices that are good for you, others and the planet and sustainability is the for the planet, right? But you may also wanna factor in the good for others, which is really around animal welfare. And So I think if, if you are sticking with cow's milk or looking for, you know, just even when you're considering other good sources of protein, let's say eggs, certainly the how the animals are treated is, is a key factor to include in that decision making.

Sophie Egan (28m 10s):

So for better cow's milk products specifically things like certified humane raised and handled animal welfare approved American Humane certified, there's third party certifiers who I call kind of the referees of sustainability because it's so hard to know from just front of pack marketing labels. But looking for those kind of third party auditors can show you when products are, are, are truly better for not just for you but for the planet and for, and

Katie Ferraro (28m 36s):

Those are legit like trustworthy. Like you could see all these certifications and be like, that does mean something and stand for something.

Sophie Egan (28m 42s):

Yeah. And it can be complicated but in general those third party seals are are much different. So a lot of it has to do with how it's regulated as far as marketing claims. You've probably, Katie gotten into all the structure function claims, whatever the er,

Katie Ferraro (28m 56s):

I tried to block that out because nobody gives a function about the structure function claims.

Sophie Egan (29m 2s):

That's a different ballgame. But in the sustainability world, I mean, you know, it's interesting right? Because I think that organic is one of the first things that comes to mind for a lot of people. Like as a shortcut, mental shortcut for what does sustainability mean? And I think there's really good reason for that. It is one of the most rigorously defined, widely available in some cases even price comparable thanks to places like Costco and Walmart that have huge scale that have brought down the price and it really is a, a meaningful term. And other cases like the term sustainable is not regulated. That's not a claim, that's not a, no one is defining that, measuring it, checking it and then as some of those other ones which also appear on a lot of egg cartons, right, that American Humane raisin handled.

Sophie Egan (29m 51s):

Those really are again from somebody going and checking and verifying that a evidence-based set of production practices has actually been followed.

Katie Ferraro (30m 0s):

Hey, we're gonna take a quick break but I'll be right

KiwiCo (30m 7s):

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Katie Ferraro (31m 37s):

It reminds me of, I was ahead of you in school about five-ish years I think, and it, at that time I remember we went from the Alta Dana Dairy before it closed was up in the Bay area and we went on a field trip there and that was the big time when the growth hormone stuff in milk was like just kind of coming up and parent people were starting to pay attention and be like, wait, what? There's growth hormone in conventional milk. And So I remember we went to the Alta Dana labs and was like, wait a minute, you guys are pumping out organic and conventional milk here but there's only one set of equipment. And the guy looked at me, he is like, yeah it's actually just all organic milk at this point, like the direction it's going. Like it's so hard and so expensive for us to maintain two entirely different systems, one that's gonna have the growth hormone and not, we're just calling it all, some of it we just don't market as growth hormone free. And remember there was all that, like the legal stuff around trying to sue the companies that were saying that their cow's milk was growth hormone free and and now that's just like standard practice.

Katie Ferraro (32m 24s):

Like even, sorry, but the cheapest brand name milks, they're all growth hormone free. And I think people paying attention and being more interested in this and even that tiny little like, you know, non RBST milk, like I remember looking for that and not even, even before I had kids like, oh that's kind of important. I would not want these other things in my milk. But it's, it is about the labeling and the changing and I think we have a history of maybe, you know, some duplicitous stuff on the front of packaging in this country. It's kind of hard to understand what we should actually trust. But like I think most people agree the idea of like a product that's been treated humanely and is better for the environment and that doesn't have hormones in it is like what you wanna put in your body and then you become a parent. So I wanna come back Sophie and ask you about like for parents who wanna make more of these planet friendly food choices overall, do you see the toddler years as a good time to start modeling those values?

Katie Ferraro (33m 11s):

I mean, I'm not saying like take your kid to the grocery store and show them that the yogurt you're buying is hormone free, but like there is a lot of dairy and like I know for our parents, especially exclusively breastfeeding moms, they wanna introduce cow's milk protein because you know, the data shows that early introduction of cow's milk protein appears to help reduce the risk of cow's milk, protein allergy down the road. So they're like, okay, I'm gonna pick a yogurt for example. What are the things you would look for as an exclusively breastfeeding mom? You know, let's say your kids had never had cow's milk protein and it's important that you're offering it to them in an age appropriate way, but how do you choose that product? What are you looking for on the labels?

Sophie Egan (33m 41s):

Well, just to answer your first question, I absolutely think it is a fantastic time, pat toddler, yours to be modeling those values. And some of it is modeling and talking about it and, and there's some really great tools for the sort of talking about it that I discovered this awesome chart from kids Eat in Color, which is actually was created with, with have a plant of foundation for fresh produce, which I actually work with. But it's this really cool kind of chart of the different colors of vegetables and how to talk to kids about the things that they do for our bodies, the different ni vitamins and nutrients in, in different fruits and vegetables, but even eat the rainbow concept at different ages. And it's even like as early as zero to two, like how to talk about, you know, vitamin A helps you see in the dark and those kind of fun things.

Sophie Egan (34m 27s):

So I think there's, there's an element of the modeling that's the conversation in the dialogue. Some of it also has to do with just where does food come from? So this is like gonna sound pretty simple, but even for the longest time when introducing foods and I rigorously followed Katie's 100 foods, I have recommended it to literally every parent. I think it's like over 120 people I've emailed that to at at this point. 'cause I loved it. I had so much fun introducing my, my babies to oh well over 100 Foods. I got really into it. But even at the time, just, you know, as my kids started to talk, I would say cow as opposed to beef because a lot of kids don't know that beef comes from a cow, that a hamburger comes from a cow.

Sophie Egan (35m 10s):

Or when introducing cow's milk, we would have a conversation where every morning we'd say, thank you cow for this milk. And it was just as, again, like talking about where food comes from is a big part of being able to inspire kids who, who appreciate, let's say that they do end up eating meat and, and eating, you know, products from animals even knowing that it comes from an animal and in how and in what way, right? Not in a judgmental way. And definitely I I'm always really careful about, you know, ensuring that my kids aren't talking about like, you know, there's a great quote, don't yuck someone else's yum, right? We're not telling other people what to do, it's just for ourselves. Why are we choosing this or that? And, and helping them understand the intuition.

Sophie Egan (35m 52s):

To me those conversations starting super young, taking them to farms, taking them to farmer's markets when you can even just to see again like this is how you milk a goat or this is how you milk a cow. It really helps them understand in the intuition versus we just don't do that because I said so or we don't do that because I'm high and mighty. Like, no, that's not the point. It's, it's about it being sort of like these are as a family, what we're about. The bigger thing to me even beyond talking about this stuff is the, from a behavioral perspective, the foods we get that we eat as children get special status for life. I wrote about this in my first book, devoured the Power of Nostalgia, you know, the cult of breakfast cereal.

Sophie Egan (36m 35s):

Like why do adults wanna go eat breakfast cereal, you know, ice cream and whatever. And so much of it is that conjuring a sense of comfort, a time you felt loved, cared for, nourished safe. So whatever healthy, sustainable foods you can possibly slip into your toddler's mouth to nourish their bodies, but also to get into their psyche as a beloved food, a comfort food, a mom's favorite or a family tradition, the better because again, it's gonna stick with them for life. And and that's even beyond the actual stuff we were talking about before with B Wilson of palate formation and texture and jaw, you know, strength and and so forth. So it's really that kind of window in, in the earliest years of just favorites and if they happen to be healthy and sustainable that you don't even have to talk about how healthy and sustainable it is.

Katie Ferraro (37m 21s):

And when you're saying the word slipping in, you're not implying we're not hiding it. This is not black bean brownie crap. Like this is like teaching the child what a black beam is and why it's different from a brownie and doesn't belong in a brown,

Sophie Egan (37m 31s):

To be honest, right? No, I mean very, I just mean making it normal. Yeah. So like one of my favorite, my toddler when they were toddlers, one of my kids' favorite foods was yuba noodles, like tofu noodles. And I was just very, I like the texture, I thought it was a cool food. They loved it and it's, you know, we've been eating hummus forever and I'm not shy about these things. It's, it's the food front and center. Like we eat mussels and tin fish toast and they eat artichokes and just foods that are healthy and sustainable as, as those foods. But I just mean really making them normal. It's kind of what you're saying about the hundred. Like if this is just what you've been eating as a kid. And now of course in school is when they realize this is weird, the other kids don't eat beets or whatever that I eat at home.

Sophie Egan (38m 14s):

But at least it, it still had that window of time. That's what I mean about slipping in. Is this more of getting it into their, their bodies in their sense of, again, like this is just like what our family eats. Yeah.

Katie Ferraro (38m 25s):

Just taking advantage of that flavor window. 'cause it is really hard to get a 3-year-old who's only ever had goldfish to eat a bee or an artichoke or a sardine. And there's nothing wrong with goldfish on occasion, but like it really constitutes the majority of some kids' calories. And then that's when you default to like, well I better force a cup of milk on 'em because if all their other calories are coming from refined soft white carbohydrate foods, it's like milk actually in that case is the most nutritious option for them. But again, that's, you're treading into like that's feeding therapy territory and that's where you need to be working with the pediatric dietitian. You know, so much of this as feeding therapists will tell you much of what they see in toddlers could have been totally prevented. Were the children allowed to explore with finger foods starting around six months of age and we're exposed to a greater variety of foods. So I love what you're saying there.

Katie Ferraro (39m 6s):

It's like, it's on us. I mean, as the parents, right? It's Ellen Satter's division of responsibility coming back around full state theory. Like we are the ones that like magical health, wholesome food does not magically appear on the table. Like you, you do have to go to the farmer's market and get the artichoke or whatever the case is and you're inspiring me. 'cause my kids literally right now think that all groceries and all food comes from Instacart. So like maybe we could go to a farmer's market or the actual grocery store. I think I have kids that literally have like never been in a grocery store because I

Sophie Egan (39m 30s):

Just, I don't think that I take my kids to the, like with my, you

Katie Ferraro (39m 33s):

Live in Boulder, I'm sure you're at the farmer's market every day. So

Sophie Egan (39m 36s):

I really don't know that often. And the reality for me is time. I love the farmer's market, but if I go there, I'm gonna have to also go to the grocery store. And I understand that like it's, it's a different purpose to me of the farmer's market. It's more of like the experience and tasting versus like getting my errands done. But the last thing I'll just say on, on this kinda behavioral part is, is that once you've given your kids something, it's really hard to take it away. And that's what I mean about the norms is not only that, just this biodiverse range of healthy, sustainable, mostly plant forward or whatever types of foods, whole, real, minimally processed, all that is just the norm of how our family eats from early on. And again, not in a self-righteous way, just in a like this is delicious great food and it's, it's normal to us.

Sophie Egan (40m 19s):

The other thing is what are your habits? So if you have ice cream every night for dessert since you're, you know, one or two, and then at age five you wanna be like, Ooh, let's stop having dessert every night. That's gonna be much harder than if you never introduced it in the first place. And I'm not here to tell your family to have dessert or not. I'm just saying this is a reason number 75 or six or seven, whatever. There's a lot of reasons and this would just be one more of why the toddler years are such a great way to really be modeling these values in the early years.

Katie Ferraro (40m 51s):

And I love that idea. Like think of it as an opportunity to introduce your child to something new instead of, I think a lot of people it's like, you know, it's so cliche, but like just begrudging those toddler years and oh, it's the dino chicken nuggets and the mac and cheese and it's like, you know what, prior to the advent of highly processed foods, including commercial baby foods in the earlier part of the 20th century, you know what cave mama fed ca baby back in the day? It was like literally modified versions of the real whole foods, like just normal foods. Like this whole idea of the highly processed stuff is very quickly become mainstream, but like it's not that big of a deal just to eat real food.

Sophie Egan (41m 24s):

Right? And I mean I don't, I don't know if that it's come up on this podcast, but I have always been a big fan of bringing up Bebe that was like kind of,

Katie Ferraro (41m 32s):

I've tried to get her, but like do you know her?

Sophie Egan (41m 36s):

No, I don't know her.

Katie Ferraro (41m 36s):

Oh my gosh, I'm gonna get back on that. I loved that book. I mean I loved

Sophie Egan (41m 41s):

It. I've just always fed my kids what my husband and I are eating. Like that's just been the norm. And so when I'm saying about eating this, just range of fruits, vegetables, grains, nuts, legumes, you know, it's

Katie Ferraro (41m 55s):

Also cheaper. I mean, I gotta cook for 10 people every day and I'm like, dude, meat's expensive. Animal foods are expensive. We're, my husband said the like, are we poor? We never have meat. And I was like, you're so lucky that, I mean my kids, they eat tofu but they just call it tofu and I hope they never, ever change that. And it's just like, sorry, it's just easier to to make too sometimes. I mean you gotta weigh all the sides of it, the environmental, the nutrition, the ease for you as a busy working parent, which everyone listening here is a busy parent and we're all doing our own work and making food can sometimes be a slog. But I do love your work and your angle of like, can we just normalize eating normal foods again? Because I think, and

Sophie Egan (42m 27s):

And just to clarify too, again, I'm general, I'm always a huge advocate of not having it be black and white, right? Yep. I mean, I've got a husband who is like a meat and potatoes Midwest guy. He's not there telling you he wants to eat sardine toast every day. But like we balance it out, right? And I think the other thing in my house at least it's, it's often helpful to have and not be like, we don't eat X, Y, and Z, but it's more of like, ah, that's like a special occasion or we'd love to eat that on holidays or for treats for, you know, red meat for like just those things. So it's not like later in life and there's a lot of written, you know about like when you withhold certain things in those early years later, kids really get mad at you as a parent if it's like, why wasn't I allowed to have whatever gold subscribers or something, right?

Sophie Egan (43m 9s):

So I try to again, make it not be all and nothing.

Katie Ferraro (43m 13s):

Now Sophie, tell us just before we wrap up here, where can our audience go to learn more about you and to support your work?

Sophie Egan (43m 19s):

Yeah, thanks so much. Well, it's been a fun conversation. All of my written work is on my website sophieegan.com, but we have a new, my co co-founders and I have a new newsletter called Climate Kitchen Soli Fure and Nico Westerman. And you can go to Climate-Kitchen.beehive.com to check out our first 12 editions. It's a pretty new newsletter that really is for all of you. It's about parents just who love food are trying to feed their kids in the ways they can feel good about. And we provide really, really practical tips, recipes, ideas, guidance, and kind of very much what we've been talking about here, answers to those top of mind questions. Well,

Katie Ferraro (43m 57s):

Thank you so much. It was a pleasure chatting with you.

Sophie Egan (43m 59s):

Yeah, thanks so much, Katie.

Katie Ferraro (44m 1s):

Well, I hope you enjoyed that interview with Sophie Egan. I am always so inspired when I chat with her, I'm like, I thought of like five other things I want to interview her about. If you want to check out her book, how to Raise a Conscious Eater, but also if you want to check out her newsletter, Climate Kitchen, I'll link all of those in the show notes page for this episode, which you can find at blwpodcast.com/42. A special thank you to our partners at AirWave Media. If you guys like podcasts that feature food and science in using your brain, check out some of the podcasts from AirWave or online at blwpodcast.com. Thanks for listening and I'll see you next time.

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