Baby-Led Weaning and Breastfeeding: How to Succeed at Both with Robin Kaplan, IBCLC

Katie Ferraro (0s):

Are you about to start solid foods but you don't know where to start? Or maybe you started with some purees and now you want to make a switch? The best place to get started learning about Starting Solid Foods safely is my one hour online video workshop called Baby LED WEANING FOR BEGINNERS. I just rerecorded this free training and it's packed with videos and visuals on how to safely prep baby led weaning foods, what it looks like for the first few days, how to reduce choking risk, and what to do if your baby has an allergic reaction to food. Everybody on this free training gets a copy of my original 100 FIRST FOODS list, so you'll never run out of ideas about what to feed your baby. Next, you can get signed up for this video workshop at baby led weaning dot co.

Katie Ferraro (41s):

If you have one hour to dedicate to learning about baby led weaning, come take this free online video training and grab your copy of that original a hundred FIRST FOODS list. While you're there, again, head to baby led weaning dot co to get signed up, and I hope to see you there.

Robin Kaplan (59s):

The best way for parents to balance Breastfeeding or offering their pumped milk and solids. So balancing out solids with this is, I like to say offer the solids as dessert in the beginning. So meaning that the main course is their milk and the solids are something for after that meal.

Katie Ferraro (1m 14s):

Hey there, I'm Katie Ferraro, registered dietitian, college nutrition professor and mom of seven specializing in baby led weaning Here on the Baby led weaning with Katie Ferraro podcast. I help you strip out all of the noise and nonsense about feeding, giving you the confidence and knowledge you need to give you baby a safe start to solid foods using baby led weaning. Hello and welcome back. I'm really excited about today's topic. We're covering baby led weaning and Breastfeeding and how to succeed at both. I'm gonna be interviewing Robin Kaplan, she's an IBCLC. She's well-known in the world of Breastfeeding, especially where I live in San Diego.

Katie Ferraro (1m 54s):

But the reason why I wanted to cover this topic is because a few years ago I had an employee who worked with me who was a new mom. She was great at Breastfeeding. I mean, she was a superstar and she helped a lot with content for baby led weaning. So even before her baby started solid food, she was like really knowledgeable about baby led weenie. And I remember the day before her baby turned six months of age, she called me on the phone and I thought, gosh, that's kind of weird. Like we slack or message like we don't usually talk on the phone, but it was nighttime and she was kind of crying and I was like, what's wrong? And she said, I'm so sad that this is the last time I'm gonna breastfeed my baby because she was Starting Solid Foods the next day. And I thought, oh my gosh. First of all, I must be horrible at my job if even the person who works with me isn't getting the message that breast milk or infant formula, whatever infant milk you're choosing that continues to be an important source of nutrition even after your baby starts solid foods.

Katie Ferraro (2m 47s):

And here's this poor mom who's worked so hard to establish a really great milk supply and a good relationship with her baby, and she's exclusively Breastfeeding and she thinks it's all gonna end tomorrow when she starts solid foods. Wow. As a dietitian, as a Breastfeeding advocate, I'm really not doing a great job of getting that message across. And so I'm personally actually working towards my IBCLC lactation credential. It's a long road, but I really want to be able to support moms who are Breastfeeding as they make this transition to solid food. So you might be noticing a lot more Breastfeeding content on the podcast that is not by accident, it is by design because we have lots and lots and lots of work to do to encourage parents to continue Breastfeeding even beyond the point when their baby starts solid foods.

Katie Ferraro (3m 31s):

So Robin Kaplan, who is joining me today is an IBCLC. She's been an IBCLC for 15 years. So that's an international board certified lactation consultant. Robin's the founder of the San Diego Breastfeeding Center. So since 2009, she's been supporting families through the challenges of Breastfeeding and pumping, and she's got this wonderful focus on compassionate evidence-based care. Robin is also the founding host of the Boob Group podcast, which I listen to regularly. Now as part of my Breastfeeding education. She's interviewed hundreds of experts and parents and all things related to infant feeding. So Robin runs a clinic in La Mesa, which is a suburb of San Diego where we both live.

Katie Ferraro (4m 14s):

She's in private practice. She sees parents who are kind of struggling with Breastfeeding, not just when they start out, but a lot of her cases, things kind of get sticky around the time you start solid food. So I've had the opportunity to go visit her at the San Diego Breastfeeding Center, which is her clinic where she works with a team of other lactation professionals. She has a book called Latch, which is a handbook for Breastfeeding confidence at every stage that I think is wonderful, plus great YouTube channel. So lots of good resources for you coming out of San Diego, but she's got resources for parents all over the globe. And so she's gonna be talking today about some tips for how you can continue Breastfeeding and succeed even when your baby starts solid food.

Katie Ferraro (4m 57s):

So with no further ado, here's Robin Kaplan IBCLC talking about baby led weaning and Breastfeeding and how to succeed at both.

Robin Kaplan (5m 9s):

So last week I had a client with a six month old who was feeling super anxious about introducing solids, was really concerned that her milk supply would decrease when she started to offer something other than her milk. She had worked really hard for several months to boost her milk supply to meet her baby's nutritional needs. And so there was this fear around losing her milk after working so diligently over these several months. And so we had a discussion about what introducing solids actually looks like. So how that during that first few months trying solids is really all about her baby exploring textures and tastes and monitoring for allergic or inflammatory reactions.

Robin Kaplan (5m 51s):

And so the amount that her baby will actually consume is pretty minimal, meaning that the amount of of her milk that her baby's gonna need is actually not gonna go down for several months. And so once she realized that her baby wouldn't be replacing her milk with solids for for several months, she said that she really felt at ease about moving to this next stage of infant feeding. And she also felt like there was some pressure removed that you know, she was gonna have to all of a sudden start offering like three meals a day and things like that. But that really it again, it was all of this is just really about exploration in the beginning. And so all of that hard work that she had done to build up her milk supply, she was still gonna reap the benefits for that because her baby's needs for her milk volume was actually not gonna go down for quite a while.

Katie Ferraro (6m 40s):

Well, I think she's so lucky that she had access to you as an educator at that point because so many moms, they have a baby. Maybe you talk to a lactation educator in the hospital, maybe you follow up and do a Breastfeeding support group early on in infancy. But my whole goal with working more with Breastfeeding moms is to remember like even at the six month mark, once you've got the Breastfeeding thing down, you still need support and education. So can you tell me a little bit about the work that you do, the clinic work that you do? I'm so interested to hear about this as a resource for parents. I know you're based in San Diego, but that you have, you know, programs and resources for people all over the place. Tell us a little bit about your professional background.

Robin Kaplan (7m 16s):

I've been an international board certified lactation consultant for over 15 years. Just celebrated my 15 year anniversary last year. And we do have a freestanding clinic called the San Diego Breastfeeding Center in La Mesa, which is a a neighborhood in San Diego. We do offer virtual visits though, which really picked up during covid and just kind of stuck. And so we work with people all over the world actually. And I love that you mentioned that, that seeking the resource of a lactation educator or a lactation consultant even after kind of those initial first few months, we like to call our visits when, when parents aren't in an acute need of, you know, having a challenge solved, we call them well feeding checks.

Robin Kaplan (7m 59s):

And so everyone knows well baby checks, they bring their doc, you know, their baby to the doctor every couple months for these well baby checks. So well feeding checks essentially are again, kind of every couple months because Breastfeeding changes. You know, we have, you know, the first couple months and then three to four months we have distracted feeding around, you know, five to six months we're starting to have that conversation about solids, parents going back to work, bottle feeding challenges. We, we work with all of these different things, babies who are dealing with, again, like I had mentioned with in the beginning, this client talking about looking for allergies and intolerances. So if baby's been really colicky, which is not my favorite word, it's kind of the catchall of my baby's fussy and I don't know what's going on, but look, you know, sometimes those babies react to foods as we start solids.

Robin Kaplan (8m 45s):

And so how to navigate that and protect the milk supply, which is the main source of nutrition. And so we really, we we do all of that. We're kind of your one stop shop for all things that have to do with lactation. And I have a couple different lactation consultants who work with me as well. We have an amazing team.

Katie Ferraro (9m 4s):

So Robin, the point of today's episode is to help parents who are gonna be starting solid foods and they wanna figure out baby led weaning, but they're also Breastfeeding and wanna continue. Like how can you succeed at both? So I know from my experience as I've been a dietitian for 25 years and I'm still continually amazed by we're not doing a great job of getting the message across sometimes. 'cause my parents are like, Katie, I know that when I start solid foods it's gonna, it's gonna hurt. It's gonna harm my breast milk supply. Is that true? And if it's not true, how can parents balance both of these things at the same time when they're so worried, they've kind of been trained to protect their milk supply and now they're like, am I giving up that control?

Katie Ferraro (9m 44s):

Is it all out the window? Like how do you counsel families when they're worried about Starting Solid Foods negatively impacting their milk supply?

Robin Kaplan (9m 52s):

Solids can impact a parent's milk supply if the baby is filling up on solids before Breastfeeding or taking that bottle of pumped milk. So the best way for parents to balance Breastfeeding or offering their pumped milk and solids. So balancing out solids with this is, I like to say offer the solids as dessert in the beginning. So meaning that the main course is their milk and the solids are something for after, after that meal, which is really easy to do for the first few months since babies are actually not consuming much volume of solids. And as babies get more solid savvy and introduced in or interested in foods, their need for milk volume will, will actually start to decrease.

Robin Kaplan (10m 33s):

And I, I find that this happens usually around 10 months. And so there's still this kind of slow decrease as we get to that year mark. And that's not to say that we're necessarily weaning at a year. If a parent wants to, they can. But there the requirements of how much milk a baby needs starts to decline after about 10, 11, 12 months. And so I still recommend Breastfeeding or offering a bottle, you know, right before solids or even up to like an hour before solids. And as baby starts to consume three or more solid meals a day, that need for milk will start to go down and that will cause a natural decrease in the parents' milk supply, which again, it kinda happens organically.

Katie Ferraro (11m 16s):

Hey, we're gonna take a quick break, but I'll be right back.

Momcozy (11m 22s):

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Katie Ferraro (13m 1s):

I love this idea of offering milk as the main course and the solid food meal is the dessert, especially at the beginning. And we teach parents that too, that like, listen, don't move your nap schedule. Don't move your milk schedule like you're just getting ready to help your baby learn how to eat and learning how to eat solid foods. This is a long process. It's gonna happen across the continuum of probably about six months. So you know, the thing you know how to do really well is Breastfeeding, give your baby some time to learn how to eat 'cause they're still figuring that out. So it's a great concept that the solid foods is dessert. Now what about for parents who are Breastfeeding and they're gonna be Starting Solid Foods with baby-led weaning, what are some realistic expectations that you provide them about how much their baby's gonna to eat in the beginning?

Robin Kaplan (13m 42s):

So again, they're kind of, their Breastfeeding or bottle feeding schedule is going to stay the same. And so typically what I see is, or what we recommend is around six to seven months, and I know we'll talk about readiness in a little bit, but around six to seven months we're talking like one time a day, they might skip a day of offering solids. You know, it's not it, there's not this pressure of I have to have my baby eat solids once a day every single day once they hit six months. It's not that it can be way more flexible somewhere around seven to eight months, they might be having solids two to, you know, two times a day in addition to all of the milk that they're receiving eight to nine months. Again, maybe we're at three times a day and those serving sizes are really small, a few bites, a few tastes, maybe about a tablespoon.

Robin Kaplan (14m 29s):

Again, with baby lu weaning, I realize we're not necessarily measuring how much they're getting, whereas purees we would, and I would say that most of the food ends up on the floor, which is where the family dog can be really helpful because it, again, it it's, it's playing with the food and maneuvering it into their mouths and trying to figure out what to do when they do get a little bit into their mouth. And so those, those amounts are, are pretty small for those first couple months when we're introducing solids.

Katie Ferraro (14m 56s):

So Robin, as an IBCLC for 15 years, I'm just curious to hear your thoughts. If you have a mom who's coming in first time trying baby-led weaning, what do you counsel her about with regards to how baby-led weaning can support continued Breastfeeding? Like do you talk about any advantages for breastfed babies when they start solid foods this way? And if so, what are those?

Robin Kaplan (15m 16s):

Yes, there are absolute benefits. You know, baby-led weaning allows the baby to self-regulate their intake, which is very similar when we're talking about on demand characteristics of Breastfeeding or bottle feeding. And you know, again, some parents on demand doesn't work for them based on, you know, their kiddo is in daycare or their baby's had challenges gaining weight. And so, but, but they, they do know this concept of kind of on demand self-regulating when the baby is telling us that they're, that they're done. And I feel like baby-led weaning really correlates nicely with that. They're very synergistic. And so the baby is also control of feeding themselves.

Robin Kaplan (15m 56s):

So, which would be in contrast of spoon-feeding where we're kind of in charge of that baby-led weaning allows this child to be more, they're not a passive feeder, they're, they're active participant. And again, baby led weaning also allows the baby to potentially consume less solids in those first few months, which means they should always be hungry for their milk, which will help protect a parent's milk supply. And so I would say that those are kind of our top advantages when we're, when we're talking about baby led weaning.

Katie Ferraro (16m 27s):

And I think if parents are familiar, like I know I do a lot of work with WIC and state WIC associations and teaching about infant feeding curriculum and especially WIC staff are so attuned to the idea of responsive feeding, right? They learn about responsive bottle feeding and pace bottle feeding techniques. And you know, we always tell parents like, listen, you know, your baby turns their head away from the breast when they're full and they cry when they're hungry. When you're Breastfeeding, you know that. And when you start solid foods, baby led weaning is just an extension of that responsive feeding method that you've already been, you know, that relationship you've already been involved in with your baby. You know, why traditionally do we rip that baby's autonomy away at six months of age and shove a spoon of food down their mouth? They're gonna continue to tell us when they're hungry, they're gonna stop eating when they're full, just like they, they can help themselves to the breast when you put them in the right position, they can help themselves to the food if you get them positioned safely in the high chair and put the safe foods out there.

Katie Ferraro (17m 17s):

So I think framing it as like this is just an extension of what you've already been doing that really helps parents when they get it like, oh, like this isn't really a big deal. Because honestly prior to the advent of commercial baby food in the earlier part of the 20th century, like parents have always fed their babies modified versions of the same foods the rest of the family ate. Like, this really is not anything new. So I think for a lot of, especially, you know, Breastfeeding, exclusively Breastfeeding families, they're like, yes, this is clearly the approach I want to take because it's letting my baby lead the way. Now any signs Robin, that parents should watch out for that might indicate that their baby's solid food intake is interfering with Breastfeeding, like without shaming or naming names. Like gimme examples of some things parents do when they're Starting Solid Foods that actually does tank their milk supply.

Robin Kaplan (17m 60s):

I mean, I would say mostly it's just giving the baby so much food that they're filling up and not wanting to have their, their milk at kind of the regular pace that they have been before. And so, you know, milk supply, it can be, be decreased. And so we're gonna look at first like what is baby's weight gain? You know, has it plateaued? So once a baby is six months or older, we're looking at about two to three ounces of weight gain per week. And so this could indicate that milk supply has decreased if, if their weight gain has slowed down. If another thing would be, if the baby is having a difficult time getting a letdown. And so that would indicate that maybe the volume of milk that's in the breast has started to decrease.

Robin Kaplan (18m 43s):

And so the baby's getting frustrated. And then for parents who are pumping either, whether it's exclusively casually or they're back at work, they might notice that their pumping output has dropped. Again, if, you know, if they're, when they're with their baby on the weekends or whatever their days off are, if the baby isn't having as much access to the breast because they're filling up on solids. And so, and then a baby will also give us some signs where milk supply has gone down so they're fussy while Breastfeeding, so they're pulling away arching, crying. So where you had mentioned like when a baby's done, they'll pull off, they'll flirt, you know, they're, they're done with it, they're happy. But if a baby is fussy and trying to communicate like, this isn't going the way that I'd like it to, that is really helpful.

Robin Kaplan (19m 28s):

Or if they seem really disinterested or frustrated when a parent is assisting to latch, those could be signs that milk supply has started to go down. And so again, kind of looking at when are solids being offered? So going back to that dessert model, rather than offering it prior to latching the baby or prior to offering a bottle, which again would start to diminish the amount that the baby would need of milk. We wanna flip that and say, try to offer again, full nutrition of milk first and then solids afterwards.

Katie Ferraro (20m 1s):

But Robin, there is a point where food does start to become the priority and we all know the benefits of extended Breastfeeding beyond one year if that works for you and baby do it. But there is the point where Breastfeeding becomes more about a nurturing and a bonding experience and much less about nutrition. Yeah. And I've definitely worked with parents who are so good at Breastfeeding and so adamant about breast milk and very knowledgeable about the benefits of breast milk to the point where they're discounting the importance of food. And how do you have that conversation with the mom? It's like, well I'm gonna breastfeed first. It's like, well there comes a point where we actually prioritize food first and then we move the breast milk behind meals. And I know there's, you know, no one approach works for every family. Yeah. But how do you cancel a family that might be a little too tied into the Breastfeeding stuff a little too late?

Katie Ferraro (20m 45s):

Like how do you broach that conversation without offending the mom, without denigrating breast milk? But you have to acknowledge the importance of nutrition from food in the weeding period at some point.

Robin Kaplan (20m 55s):

That's a great question. And so like you said, I mean it, it depends on the baby. So what a lot of questions we get asked, which kind of leads into, into your question, but it's like, how much breast milk does my baby need per 24 hours? And we actually just had a blog article last month about this because the first six months is easy, it's all based on baby's age, but six to 12 months, it's so nuanced because it all depends on how well the baby is doing with solids. And so we have some babies who are like, I love solid foods, I want to eat them whenever I can. And those are kind of the easier ones to transition from. Milk is the priority, solids are the afterthought or dessert to then ride around nine, 10 months starting to shift that where we're prioritizing these free meals a day and maybe during, you know, and those times maybe we offer the breast or a bottle or a cup of, of expressed milk after, or you know, either the cup can be offered at the meal or after the meal, then they nurse.

Robin Kaplan (21m 57s):

But for those babies who are struggling with solids, we have to look at are they struggling with solids because of some sort of texture situation or oral motor, you know, dysfunction, something like that that, you know, where they should be seeing like an OT or speech language pathologist for that. I have a client in particular that comes to mind where her baby just really kind of turns his face away when solids are offered. And again, like on whether she's offering it to him, you know, by handing it to him or putting it on his tray, he's just completely disinterested. He'll taste it a little bit, but not really. And so when that's happening and the baby's like 9, 10, 11 months, that's when we wanna bring in a specialist to see, you know, is there something anatomical that is causing this challenge?

Robin Kaplan (22m 44s):

There's a reason for that. So in that way, while we would still wanna try to prioritize solids, that baby may not be the best candidate for starting that switch solid foods and then breast milk afterwards because they're struggling with solids. And again, that when a baby is struggling with solids, that's not something that a parent should be navigating on their own. So I, I would say it again nuance, but if solids are going well then ride around that it kind of like 10 month mark is what I see is like, okay, this is where we start prioritizing solids, or I should say giving them the same priority as breast milk.

Robin Kaplan (23m 24s):

And so it really just, that amount slowly starts to decline over those few months as solids become, you know, a a, a really nice priority for the, for the baby.

Katie Ferraro (23m 36s):

Hey, we're gonna take a quick break, but I'll be right back.

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Katie Ferraro (24m 2s):

Now Robin, what's one piece of advice you can offer to Breastfeeding moms who are returning to work? Because I've heard you say returning to work a couple of times and I know I'm going through the IBCLC training and right now the going back to work piece is like, it's the straw that breaks the camel's back for a lot of moms. So they're feeling overwhelmed about that. They wanna keep Breastfeeding now they've got to start solid foods when they're just so spun up about all these things kind of coalescing together. How, how do you talk them down? Like what's the one piece of advice you'd give a mom in that situation?

Robin Kaplan (24m 30s):

Sure. Well, I, I mean again, you know, the first couple months solids is just for fun. And so it might, you know, it depends on when the parent's getting home from work. You know, I have a lot of clients whose daycare are offering solids, you know, once a day, you know, so the parent can send whatever they want their care provider to offer. If the baby is awake, you know, when they get home from work and they're all gonna be sitting down to dinner, that's a wonderful time to incorporate the baby into the, into the family feeding time. And then, and then on days off. You know, offering it at any point of the day can be helpful. But I, I think that, you know, because those first couple months, again, it, it is for food is for fun and for playing and for trying things out.

Robin Kaplan (25m 16s):

It doesn't need to be that the top priority. And really at the, at that point it's still, you know, pumping regularly at work and things like that to keep up their milk supply.

Katie Ferraro (25m 25s):

Well Robin, I love this conversation. I appreciate the work you're doing in the Breastfeeding space and encouraging parents to stick with it even after they start solid foods. 'cause I think there's, there's so much confusion and we live in such a black and white world. Like I was Breastfeeding, now my baby's eating solid foods. Like no, no, no, no, no. You're gonna keep doing both of these in tandem. Just like you guys were learning the dance early on and Breastfeeding. There's gonna be kind of a, an interplay now there's a a third partner who's stepping in here and that's the solid foods, but it's gonna take a while for everyone to get the hang of it. So where can our audience go to learn more about your work and to support your business and the work you and your team are doing?

Robin Kaplan (25m 60s):

The name of our clinic is a San Diego Breastfeeding Center. So we have a website where you can find out more information about our lactation consultations and our functional nutrition consultations where we help with Breastfeeding, pumping bottle feeding, returning to work, introducing solids, navigating food intolerances and allergies. And then we also help with weaning. So not just baby led weaning, but also weaning from, you know, from milk as well. And like I mentioned in the beginning, we offer in-person and virtual appointments so we really can support families wherever they live. We also have an Instagram page, which is San Diego Breastfeeding Center. We have a newsletter that people can sign up for on our website where we share our blog posts and different types of appointments that we're offering, different events, things like that.

Robin Kaplan (26m 45s):

Especially if you live in San Diego. And then we have a YouTube channel called DIY Breastfeeding that has different videos about, you know, positioning and supplementing and all, all the things bottle feeding that are quick, just little five minute videos that people can access release.

Katie Ferraro (27m 2s):

And I have to tell you, 'cause I'm in the same program that you took for your I-V-C-L-C and they share some of your videos from your YouTube channel. And that's when I started researching you and I was like, oh my gosh, like this is such an incredible resource because much like with baby led weaning when it comes to Breastfeeding, like seeing really is believing. Like sometimes you gotta just see like, let me, like what does that latch look like? Or you know, and so I, I think your YouTube channel is such a wonderful resource for parents as well, and not just when you're starting out Breastfeeding, remember to check in with an IBCLC and the resources in your area or online even, even once you get Breastfeeding down because things change. And what you did at three months is not the same as six months and it's definitely not gonna look the same at nine or 10 months.

Robin Kaplan (27m 41s):

Exactly. Well

Katie Ferraro (27m 43s):

Thank you for your time, Robin. I really appreciate the conversation.

Robin Kaplan (27m 45s):

You're welcome. Thanks Katie.

Katie Ferraro (27m 48s):

Well, I hope you enjoyed that interview with Robin Kaplan IBCLC. Again, she's a lactation expert and author. She's the founder of the San Diego Breastfeeding Center, which after the interview I kind of harassed her to see if I could come visit her in person and see her Breastfeeding center. It's an incredible resource if you are in San Diego, but she also has so many wonderful resources for you if you're struggling with Breastfeeding as you start the transition to solid foods, because you shouldn't feel bad about that. She says a lot of her caseload actually originates in the second or latter half of infancy, like once you've got Breastfeeding established, when you bring solid foods into the mix, sometimes stuff gets a little bit sticky. So robin's there to help you get unstuck. Her website again is SD bfc that san diego Breastfeeding center.com.

Katie Ferraro (28m 30s):

I will put a link to all of the resources that Robin mentioned in today's interview on the show notes page for this episode, which you can find@bwpodcast.com slash three zero. A special thank you to our partners at AirWave Media. If you like podcasts that feature food and science and using your brain, check out some of the resources from AirWave. We're online@bwpodcast.com. Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you next time.

America's Test Kitchen (29m 3s):

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