Brain-Heart-Body Connections When Feeding Babies with Chelsea Conaboy

Katie Ferraro (0s):

Checking in on your infant refresher CPR course status. Have you taken CPR recently? Actually, everybody who helps feed your baby should know CPR because while there's no higher risk of choking with baby-led weaning compared to conventional spoon Feeding, CPR can save your baby's life. The course I take every quarter is available online. It's incredibly thorough, but it's also concise. You can get $10 off your online CPR course registration with my affiliate discount code "KATIE10". The website you sign up at is bit.ly/onlineCPRcourse.

Rainbow Puppy Science Lab (32s):

Welcome to Rainbow Puppy Science Lab. Woo. Hi, I'm Atticus. And I'm Kyle. I'm a national board Certified teacher, so I love things that are educational. And I'm a kid, so I love things that are fun. On Rainbow Puppy Science Lab. Each episode is dedicated to the careful study of something cool like ice cream or video games. We'll go back in time to discover some fun facts from the history of our subject and imagine the future, like what if they combined ice cream and video games? Oh, that'd be sweet. The show is packed with fun facts, trivia games, even experiments you can try at home. It's so much fun. You won't even believe it's educational. So follow Rainbow Puppy Science Lab starting Tuesday, April 25th, and become an expert at all things awesome. Jinx.

Chelsea Conaboy (1m 28s):

The night before we had intended to begin like baby-led weaning specifically I had a dream that he choked. The next morning we gave him thin sticks of, of vegetables I think, and he took his first couple of like scrapes at it and he gagged and I panicked and like scooped him up out of his highchair. And that was it for that day.

Katie Ferraro (1m 53s):

Hey there I'm Katie Ferraro, registered dietitian, college nutrition professor and mom of seven specializing in baby led weaning. Here on the baby- led weaning made easy podcast I help you strip out all of the noise and nonsense about feeding, leaving you with the confidence and knowledge you need to give your baby a safe start to solid foods using baby led weaning. Do you feel like your brain has changed since you had a baby or started having kids? My guest today is a journalist and author Chelsea Conaboy. Chelsea is a mom of two children. She's based in Maine and she's the author of the book Mother Brain. How neuroscience is rewriting, the Story of Parenthood.

Katie Ferraro (2m 35s):

And I read a lot of parenting books preparing for interviews with authors, but the book Mother Brain that Chelsea wrote, it really stood out to me like this was totally different and like nothing I've ever heard in the parenting space. I also shouldn't say I read it because I only listen to books, audiobooks and Chelsea did her own narration of her audiobook. It's fabulous. And I just wanted to chat with Chelsea because she explains a little bit in her book about like what scientists know about how our brains change when we have children, but I kind of wanted to drill down into like, okay, well let's take it to our audience, which is starting solid foods. What about those parents who feel super anxious or nervous? We had a mom right after my free online workshop yesterday, I was like, why'd you take the workshop?

Katie Ferraro (3m 19s):

She's like, I'm absolutely terrified that my baby's gonna choke on food. Like these are very strong feelings. Okay, where are these emotions coming from? Like what role are, are hormones playing? And Chelsea talks about how your experiences or rather your lack of experience can be contributing to certain feelings. And then we go into kind of some larger discussion topics like, you know, what role does social media play, for example, and what we think is the right way to do the various parts of parenting that we all have to do. So this is a little bit of a different type of interview than we usually do on the show, but I just really enjoyed getting to kind of chat through some of the nitty gritty about the neuroscience. Well, I mean Chelsea explains it all. I just asked the questions, but then we also have a discussion about kind of some larger societal issues related to parenting.

Katie Ferraro (4m 2s):

So again, this is Chelsea Conaboy, she's the author of the book Mother Brain. I hope you'll check out her book. Her website is motherbrainbook.com. And with no further ado, here's Chelsea Conaboy as we chat about Brain Heart Body connections when Feeding Babies.

Chelsea Conaboy (4m 19s):

I'm so glad to be here. Katie. Thank you.

Katie Ferraro (4m 21s):

I know this is probably like a kind of weirder style podcast than you're normally doing. I'm really excited to chat with you about Brain, heart Body connections when we're raising children and Feeding Babies. But before we get started, could you tell us a little bit about your background and some of the work that you do?

Chelsea Conaboy (4m 36s):

Absolutely. So I am a journalist., I worked in newspapers for a long time. I was a health and science reporter at the Boston Globe in the Philadelphia Enquirer and before being an editor here at a newspaper in Maine. And after my second child was born, I went freelance and still was writing about health and science. And in 2019 I started writing this book full-time.

Katie Ferraro (4m 59s):

Can you tell us how long it took you to write the book?

Chelsea Conaboy (5m 1s):

So 2019 and then I finished my manuscript at the end of 2020. The reality is I had been doing reporting on the book for about four years before that. So it was like a, a long process that I picked away at for a long time. And then it really was about three years of serious writing.

Katie Ferraro (5m 20s):

I was trying to think how I heard about your book Mother Brain, like where I first heard about it and I can't remember, but I did somehow stumble upon your book. And It's such a unique topic. Could you share like what the concept of the book is and I think that will help parents understand why it took you three years to write it.

Chelsea Conaboy (5m 36s):

Yeah, I mean I think it helps to talk about why I wrote the book, which is, okay, do that first. You know, so as a health and science journalist, I did kind of all my research when I was, when I was pregnant with my first son and I went to the classes, I read the books, I, you know, I felt like I was ready and then my child was born and I felt completely blindsided by the experience of becoming a mother and specifically like the internal reality for me, I was really overwhelmed with worry in that time and I worried not just about, you know, my son and his health and safety and growth and my ability to take care of him, but I also worried about the worry itself.

Chelsea Conaboy (6m 18s):

I thought like, why do I feel like this? Is it a sign that something in me is like missing or broken? And I went looking for the words that could help me understand what I was feeling. And I found it really in the science of on the maternal brain. And that led me to this question of, you know, the brain changes, the brain has changed by Parenthood, why aren't we talking about this and what else am I missing as a result? And so the book really dives deep into the science, into the Neuroscience of the parental brain, looking at like the history of the science, the researchers who are doing it. I talk to parents about their own transition to Parenthood and I look at like the cultural history, particularly around the stories we tell about motherhood and how, how we've gotten them wrong and how this new science tells a different story.

Katie Ferraro (7m 8s):

And I can imagine as someone who, I mean we do a lot of work in social media and it's a massive beast for bad and good for lots of different reasons. And I can assume that a lot of what parents are learning about quote on quote parenting is coming from social media and that's probably changed dramatically even since you started researching the book. How does social media play into like the stories that we tell ourselves were being told about becoming a parent?

Chelsea Conaboy (7m 34s):

Oh my gosh. Well, so I should mention that a book just came out this week called Mom Influenced, which is all about this point by Sarah Peterson. It's really, really great. But it definitely did change even in the process of writing this book. And in my, my own journey of motherhood, my oldest is now eight. But I think what is not different is that there have long been people who have dictated the narrative of what it means to become a mother or to become a parent and have told us sort of what it means and how, how it feels. And for a long time those were like expert like John Bowlby and Dr. Spock and Seaberry Brazelton, these people who wrote books that were iconic and sort of shaped generations of Parenthood.

Chelsea Conaboy (8m 21s):

And now I think it's really like a positive thing that we have many voices that we can can draw on and we can, it's not just sort of like one male expert telling us how we're supposed to do it. It's like all of these other voices. But then, you know, that's a double edged sword, how how do we wade through all of that?

Katie Ferraro (8m 38s):

It's too much. It's so overwhelming, right? Like exactly. And I'm in this little tiny corner of starting solid foods like our niche, six to 12 month old Babies. And yet, yeah, this is like episode 350, like there's so many pieces of content and so much to teach and so many experiences to share and that's just about feeding a baby food and there's so many other things you have to do when you're raising a child. And I appreciate you sharing like the why for your book because I think that resonates with a lot of parents. Like you just feel like, wow, this is so different. So when you said you were interviewing all the researchers, I was always curious about this when I was reading your book, like are there actual researchers working on, I hate to use the frames mom brain, and I know you purposely don't use that, but like how the brain changes with motherhood, and I guess we could say Parenthood in general, but your book is specific to mothers, people are researching that like on the reg?

Chelsea Conaboy (9m 25s):

I should say it's not actually specific totally to mothers. I mean I talk a lot about the experience of pregnancy and what that means for the brain, but the, one of the messages of the book is really that this is a story for everyone that the brain is also changed by. There are two things that shape the parental brain, which we can talk more about, but it's hormones, And, its experience. The hormones of pregnancy really like prime the brain to be ready to receive our Babies, who are these really powerful stimuli. The same thing is true for fathers and other non-gestational parents that they go through really pretty significant hormonal changes as they become parents. And then they also, you know, if they choose to have this experience of engaging with a baby whose needs are unyielding and who they have to learn how to meet again and again.

Chelsea Conaboy (10m 12s):

But yes, to answer your question, there are researchers who are really entirely focused on the maternal brain. There are researchers who are focused on the paternal brain. There has been really like almost seven decades of work by researchers who are focused on this in other animals, not humans. And then just, we've only kind of had like the technology and the framework for studying this in humans over the last two to three decades. So, but there are people who, this is a field, this is a field of research.

Katie Ferraro (10m 43s):

And what is a field of research called?

Chelsea Conaboy (10m 45s):

Oh, that's a great question. I mean I, I don't

Katie Ferraro (10m 47s):

Even know, I don't know how to re like how I was trying to look it up, but like, I don't know what you call it even

Chelsea Conaboy (10m 52s):

It's the Neuroscience of the parental brain or I mean some people talk about it in the context of caregiving. It's a subcategory of Neuroscience. so you know, some people also talk about it as like social Neuroscience, like within the context of of bonding. There's like different frameworks for understanding it.

Katie Ferraro (11m 9s):

Different hashtags. Got it. Wait, I, when I was reading it, I was thought it was interesting that you pointed out and like, you know, you find yourself like nodding your heads but that mothers spend more time preparing for the birth of the baby than learning how to actually take care of the child. Like, and I know for me, so I have a singleton then I have a set of quadruplets and a set of twins. So I had seven kids, three and under like I, wow. Like my brain was functioning in a very, on a very different level. Like I look back, I'm like, I actually don't know how I did that. And like I don't think I would recommend anyone do it, but whatever you get through it. With my oldest, I remember reading all the books like I'm, I'm glad I had the singleton pregnancy like the old school way like, and we had done fertility with our kids is kind of the backstory, but we struggled a lot to get pregnant and then when I was getting ready for her, I'm like, oh my gosh, this costs so much and like there's so much to do And, it was like reading all the books and I remember like I bought my husband some book and I was like, are she even gonna read this book?

Katie Ferraro (11m 58s):

And he was like, I feel like I'm just gonna let my instincts kick in. And I was like, I have read like 50 books and you are just gonna rely on instincts and like I think parents are l they're reading so much and then when that baby actually came, like I wasn't sure what to do. Do you find that most parents are over preparing for this stuff that doesn't matter or what are the areas that they could be working on? I mean, not to shame anyone, but is that common?

Chelsea Conaboy (12m 20s):

I think extremely common. Yeah. We're taught to focus on like the logistics so much, which for good reason, like we need to, right? Like we have to plan for childcare, we need to have the right things in our home. We need to have like a, an understanding of like the mechanisms of birth and like how do we make decisions in that time and, and like breastfeeding, although that's something you really can't get like figure out until you're in it. But, and at the same time I think all of that is like worthy and valuable for the most part. But then at the same time we should be talking about the brain. We should be talking about how this stage of life is a distinct stage of development.

Chelsea Conaboy (12m 60s):

The changes that happen in the brain are on par, certain changes anyways are on par with what happens during adolescence and we don't talk about it, we don't give people the information that they need to consider how that will feel for them and how it might go and what kinds of support they need as a result. And so it's not that we shouldn't be doing all of that other, although I think we are like worry excessively about baby gear but you know, you need so little of it in those first weeks. Yeah. But I think we certainly need to spend more time talking to parents about their brains and what Parenthood actually means for them.

Katie Ferraro (13m 38s):

Hey, we're gonna take a quick break but I'll be right back.

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Katie Ferraro (14m 48s):

So one thing that's really interesting about you saying like, you know, first time parents they buy all the gear like we all did it If, you had the means or you were so inclined in the registry and all that. And then with the second baby you realize like, okay, what do they really need? Like mm, somewhere safe to sleep and some infant milk and maybe a diaper if that's your jam. But also they don't even really need that. Like the diaper free people teach that. Like with baby-led weaning what's so cool is a lot of times parents come into baby-led weaning because they like did traditional, conventional spoon Feeding with their oldest and they might be a picky eater and they're like the second baby just picks the food up off your plate and starts eating it. Like you know, we always like simple is sometimes the direction that you go I, I know the more kids you have, you just don't have the capacity to kind of overthink everything. And again, not accusing anyone of overthinking but this notion of how our brains change, you just kind of like the experience part, like the hormones that's gonna happen.

Katie Ferraro (15m 34s):

Like you maybe you can talk more to this If, you do have control or don't have control but like the experience once you have done it once and you've kept that one person alive to the point where you decided or ended up having another one like that experience gives you confidence. And it's the same thing with Feeding, like If, you've already done this once or you did it once in a way you didn't like now the second one like hey I'm willing to try something different. Could you talk a little bit about the experiential part of Parenthood?

Chelsea Conaboy (15m 56s):

Oh yeah. Yes. I mean so one thing that I'm hearing as as thinking about also, you know, in the context of all of the experts giving us advice, you know through the generations and also you know, through social medias we like consume all of this information as if like we're gonna find the right way, we're gonna like figure it out and know how to do it. And the reality is like some of that is valuable but then ultimately you just have to be in it and be looking at your kid, right? And that's, I guess one thing that I think is so valuable in the brain science is that your baby is like your teacher truly it, that sounds sort of cliche but like there are science at at the heart of that statement which is our, the hormonal changes that we go through as we transition into Parenthood, like I said, they primed the brain to be ready to receive our baby's cues, right?

Chelsea Conaboy (16m 49s):

Which are, we are flooded by them like the cries and the smells and the cos and their constant needs are we in those that early postpartum period were put into this sort of hyper responsive state. There are changes in the brain in regions that are related to motivation and vigilance and meaning making that really like compel us to pay attention to our Babies to go back and again and again to try to meet their needs. And that there's two points to that, right? One is that our Babies need our attention more than anything else to keep them alive. What they need is our attention. And number two, it pushes us into this really powerful intense stage of learning.

Chelsea Conaboy (17m 32s):

That's what this is at the base, you know, this is learning how to become a parent. It's just that there are these biological mechanisms that make it happen more intensely and more quickly than than other experiences in our lives. And so something I think a lot about in my own parenting is when I get kind of like caught up in the advice, you know, when my par my kids like move into like a new stage of development and you know they're five and eight now so like they're kind of com more complex in some ways like social needs and as I'm trying to figure it out, I'm like, do I do a lot of reading information is like my coping mechanism, that's why I wrote this book. But like I do all of the reading and listen to all of the experts but then I have to like check myself and say actually like what I need to do is look at my kid and like what does my kid need?

Chelsea Conaboy (18m 21s):

And have faith that like I've had the experience, my brain has adapted to this role that I can learn what they need and respond to it.

Katie Ferraro (18m 31s):

But that's also a learned behavior. Like you have had to learn absolutely to do that and to trust yourself. Which again, it doesn't come naturally. We, we are prone most of us I would say to self-doubt. Like I don't know if I can do this. I'm so scared my baby's gonna choke on food. That's what we hear. I'm terrified, I'm horrified. Like the adjectives that we get in our surveys from parents and sometimes it's like wow, okay we need to do more of this. We need to help here. We can teach here. Do you mind sharing a little bit, I know they're five and eight, but like take us back to when you were starting solid foods with your oldest. What were the emotions and the feelings that you were having at that time? Like literally what was going through your brain as you were making that transition to solid foods with your oldest baby?

Chelsea Conaboy (19m 12s):

I remember it very clearly with my oldest. I knew that we were going to start solids and I had multiple books that I had got from friends on that process and so I had started planning for it and thinking through it. And the night before we had intended to begin like baby-led weaning specifically, I had a dream that he choked and so it's exactly that. I had all of that anxiety that you hear about and I had this dream that he choked the next morning we gave him some, I don't remember exactly what it was like some very like thin sticks of of vegetables I think.

Chelsea Conaboy (19m 52s):

And he took his first couple of like scrapes at it and he gagged and I panicked and like scooped him up out of his highchair and that was it for that day. And so it's new, it was new to me, it was new to him and I felt really anxious about it and felt like I had done it wrong, felt like I had like maybe put him in danger. But we went forward from there. I mean I don't know exactly like how you define the parameters of BABYLED weeding but like we ended up doing like a a definite mix of things like gave him a lot of our food and spoon fed him things. So, which I think is pretty, there

Katie Ferraro (20m 33s):

Are no parameters. That's, that's the whole thing and we're really trying to change that narrative. Like it, it is a historically quite a judgemental place and we've actually had Gill Rapley the co-author of the original Baby-led weaning book and really the founding philosopher of this movement on to just, just let's go through answer these questions and it's like there's no right or wrong way, way to do this. You know, your baby can eat many more foods than we might give them credit for. They eventually need to learn how to feed themselves. But a lot of times it's you know what works for the parents. and what I think is interesting is that in our program I teach a purees for a few days approach, which is using a baby-led approach. We teach the parents how to do, it's called the preloaded spoon approach And. It's not for everyone. Some parents are like, I'm totally fine with avocado strips on day one and sweet potato on day two. And other parents are like, oh my gosh, I am so anxious, I am so terrified this for a few days.

Katie Ferraro (21m 17s):

It gives them that bridge between infant milk and solid foods. But I don't want you to be stuck on purees for weeks and months on end. That's what happens. Where's problematic And we see that children, you know, eventually oftentimes needing Feeding therapy if they haven't explored all these different foods and tastes and textures. So there's different approaches for different learners and again I think your experience as a parent makes you realize there's no one way to do it all It, it does concern me though If, you boil down, especially like in social media, everything is like legit today we were trying to make, I have gal on our team who's a dietitian who helps me with content. She's like okay so this one reel's doing really well. We're gonna remix it and do it with five foods but I need you to get it down to 15 seconds. I was like, so lemme get this straight. You need me to teach about making five different foods safe and 15 seconds.

Katie Ferraro (21m 59s):

She's like, yep. Otherwise you know the retention drops off and then it's like, I mean I can do it but like really 15, you spent three years writing a book. I make a reel that's 15 seconds long And again we're we're helping parents in different ways. So I think it's this amalgamation of resources like we're very fortunate we have more info than ever and that's really overwhelming. Can you talk about information overload in the parent brain cuz like you know, we have parents like I'm shutting down all the apps like I need to focus on my kid. That's awesome.

Chelsea Conaboy (22m 27s):

Yes, I think you have to shut it down sometimes and and focus on what works for your kid and also works for yourself. Like I was just thinking with our second child, I had like a farmer's market, c s a and I, I know I made a ton of pure`es and then a ton of like stewed things and poached things and and like was Feeding him off our plates also like I And it that felt like I really just like did what felt good then And it, it worked for us, you know,

Katie Ferraro (22m 53s):

No terror dreams the night before you started solid foods, no terror?

Chelsea Conaboy (22m 57s):

Dreams that time. Nope. Nope. Not at all. So I think one thing that I love to talk about with this stuff is, so you know a major message in the book is that this science has been out there for a while but we haven't, the science of the parental brain has been out there for a while but we haven't like really incorporated into our narratives around Parenthood yet. And that's partly because we have this other story, right, which is maternal instinct and which is this like idea that we know what to do, that it's like part of our gender, it's ingrained in us. There is a right way to do it and to feel it. And if you're like a good woman and a good mother, it happens sort of innately and automatically this story is really ingrained in our culture in lots of different ways.

Chelsea Conaboy (23m 45s):

And what the science tells us is instead that it's not ingrained in us. It's not like there from birth. It's something that we learn, it's a process that unfolds And, it takes time and it's grueling And. it also comes from the brains that we already have and all of like the strengths and challenges, the worries and anxieties we might already carry with us And. it is a learning process fundamentally, which means that mistakes are part of it. And this might be like a little bit in the weeds, but our own brains have, you know, these systems for understanding our body's cues for like hunger and thirst and cold and you know, feelings that we attach emotions to that we use these cues to create our sense of ourselves and the brain systems that are involved in like reading those cues and making sense of them.

Chelsea Conaboy (24m 39s):

There's evidence in the parental brain research that those same systems respond intensely to our Babies. One of the researchers put it to me as if it's like these, these brain regions that are involved in our sense of ourselves are essentially extended to include our Babies. and what those brain systems do is like predict what our needs are and now we're doing that for our Babies too, right? Like we are having to predict their needs because they can't meet them for themselves. And so one thing that's so important for our brains in, in making these prediction models is mistakes. That's like how we get it right next time.

Chelsea Conaboy (25m 21s):

Like that is like a fundamental piece of how our brains work. We have to make mistakes and learn from them for ourselves and for our Babies.

Katie Ferraro (25m 30s):

Hey, we're gonna take a quick break but I'll be right back.

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Katie Ferraro (26m 36s):

You are like, my mouth is a gap because like you're blowing my mind because in infant Feeding like open cup practice for example, ideally by 12 months of age the baby can drink out of an open cup, albeit with minimal spillage, okay it's a milestone and we know those freak parents out. But like when you're practicing for six months and the baby's dribbling milk down the side of the mouth and parents wanna go in there and clean it and wipe it all up, we say no, don't you need to let your baby experience that on their own. That uncomfortable feeling of the milk dribbling down the side of their mouth, they know that feels uncomfortable and the next time they pick the cup up they make a tiny micro correction. You don't have to do it for them, it's happening in their brain because they don't want to feel that uncomfortable thing. It's not gonna happen magically the next time they need to practice. So a lot of this is aligning with what's also happening in the baby's brain and yet we take on, well I'm the mom, I need to fix this for them.

Katie Ferraro (27m 22s):

And like the relinquishing control piece, especially in baby-led weaning is, is a big deal because parents, I wanna do this for the baby, but the baby has to learn how to do it for themselves. That's the whole point of raising an independent eater. But it's, it's hard to untrain your brain. I hear what you're saying,

Chelsea Conaboy (27m 37s):

Right? So mistakes are part of the process and there's like not necessarily one linear path to get there, right? Like

Katie Ferraro (27m 43s):

I know, but also like a big mistake like your night terror of the baby choking, like that's pretty major. If I feed them a food that they choke on and they die, like yeah mistakes are important, but like you magnify these things. I do remind parents like a baby who is sitting properly in a highchair with the foods that are fed properly, like they're not going to choke. But then there does come some learning with people, how do I make the food safe? Like we don't feed bananas with the peel on them for example, they can choke on the peel. So how do you balance that with like, I wanna have the experience, I need to let the baby have mistakes, but if I do this wrong, like a person could that I'm in charge of could die. Like that's pretty major.

Chelsea Conaboy (28m 13s):

You know, I, I talked about how this is the learning process, but it's one of the things that makes this such a distinct learning process, right? Like the weight of it, the res weight of that responsibility and the intensity of it. You're in charge of a child who is tiny and nonverbal and vulnerable and who depends on you for their every need. And so we like can feel that, you know, we feel the weight of that all the time, but it also is like a factor that is like shaping how intensely our brain changes in response to those demands.

Katie Ferraro (28m 46s):

Oh but you're making me feel better that it's like you're not expected to know how to do all of this at the beginning. And I think the like following your instinct thing is one thing and some people do that and we're dealing with an age where like there's so much information and sometimes you just need to block it all out and have that experience. So for parents who are feeling this huge shift again the hormones, the experiences, all the different things that's happening in their life and their baby's life, how do you suggest balancing it? Like what does the research show? And I'm sure there's no one right answer, but you've studied this, so what advice would you give to a new mom just starting solid foods, feeling very anxious. Like they'll say things like Katie I, I need to start offering high iron foods because my baby's iron just ran out at the six month mark.

Katie Ferraro (29m 26s):

And like obviously there's some misinformation in there but they, they have anxiety about this next step. What's the best way to manage that?

Chelsea Conaboy (29m 33s):

So I'll give one like direct response to that question and one less direct one. So I think that the direct response is kind of simple, which is to like take in all the information that you think is helpful to you and then to take a step back from it and say, and to look at you and your life and your child and think about what fits best for you. Is it the right time, is it the right approach? You know, like ultimately we get caught up so much in trying to do things right as parents and what often what we need to be thinking about is like what's right for our family, what's what's right for our kid? And those things are not always the same, right?

Chelsea Conaboy (30m 15s):

How what society tells us is the right way to do something is not always what is right for our own child. This might feel like a leap, but like the bigger question of like how do we support this process of this transition to Parenthood and in the context of all of these kind of daily decisions that we need to make ultimately in my mind comes back to changing our society and we need is

Katie Ferraro (30m 39s):

That all Chelsea?

Chelsea Conaboy (30m 40s):

Yeah, right? Like we need paid leave and real family friendly policies and we don't have them and we should have them And. it would make a difference for so many things including this question, right? Like how, how much more stressful is figuring out how to feed your kid when you are not financially stable, when you're worried about your job, when you have to go back to work when you're pumping and having, struggling with pumping and even not struggling but dealing with the demands of balancing, pumping and work and washing all of the parts and figuring it out with your partner and you know, on and on. And so those are problems that we can change.

Chelsea Conaboy (31m 22s):

We just so far have not had the political will to do it.

Katie Ferraro (31m 25s):

It's funny, even when we were talking before the interview and just I I know about your professional background and you mentioned well and then so and so in my career because then we didn't have full-time childcare And, it was like right off the bat it's all of us. Like I do, I wish I could work more. Yeah. Do I have seven kids that only go to school and then never stay there and then I have to work? It's like, and then when they're Babies like you're, you're happy that they're in school. It's like, you know, I should be happy that they're at home but I also wanna work and, and I know that parents are feeling like all of this cuz a lot of our parents are just starting to go back to work when they're, they're learning about starting solid foods. But also we have moms who listen to the podcasts who are on the free workshop learning about BABYLED me and they're pregnant and I'm like, you're already worried about something that's so far away, but like if that's how you're organizing the information and that's working for you, that's great.

Katie Ferraro (32m 8s):

And there's other parents that show up are like, shoot my baby's eight months of age and I didn't really realize I was supposed to be offering different foods. And like it's balancing the too much information, not enough information trying to work like it's a lot and just hearing like it's society itself has some inherent flaws that like we're not really even talking about. And when you start talking about just leave and not being worried about having to go back to work like that would free up a lot of head space for a lot of parents to focus on other things that they wanna do.

Chelsea Conaboy (32m 36s):

Absolutely. Absolutely. Just to bring this back to the brain science, like I also think that there's, when I talk about changing our society, like there is also an element of like changing how we talk about Parenthood. So like I, I think of all those people who are doing the research while they're pregnant and probably have this feeling, which I had of like, there is a linear path towards a child's health, right? Or towards a strong bond with my child. And think about this a lot within the context of childbirth, we're sort of told healthy pregnancy plus vaginal delivery plus immediate breastfeeding equals a bond that's like sealed for life, right? Like you have all Yeah.

Katie Ferraro (33m 13s):

And then when you have multiples, I know I'm sure this comes up in your research, but like I have two sets of multiples. You never feel like you're doing it. You already feel like you're not doing enough no matter how many kids you have or one or zero. But like then it's like, well I gave that one more attention. And that one we have moms that are literally taking triplets and trying to spend 20 minutes Feeding each one so they can have that time times three meals. I'm like, you're spending three hours a day Feeding a there's literally no time to do that. But I feel like I wanna give them that attention. Is there science around the the multiple mom brain? Because I can imagine she feels even worse. I don't know.

Chelsea Conaboy (33m 46s):

I don't know. So I should say there's, I I don't know of any Neuroscience looking at that. Like there might, I'm sure that there's like social psychology stuff I'm looking at at it, but like brain brain imaging of, of multiples parents. But what we do know is that like this is a bidirectional process, right? So we talk a lot about how parents behavior shapes child brain development and we don't talk a whole lot about how children's shape their parents' brain development. And they do like there are studies that show for example, the pattern of brain changes in parents who have NICU Babies who are premature is different than the pattern of brain changes in parents who deliver a baby for full term.

Chelsea Conaboy (34m 30s):

And researchers think that was a a small study. We need a lot more research in that area. But researchers think that they describe those changes as as being about how much harder the, the NICU baby's parents had to work.ad their much more limited cues that like their brain was more intensely activated because their baby couldn't turn their head or make sounds that a full term baby could. And so they had to like pay even closer attention.

Katie Ferraro (34m 59s):

Hey, We're gonna take a quick break, but I'll be right back.

A Mindful Moment (35m 8s):

At a time when change is constant and we are pulled in far too many directions, we need a way to stay present to life and to increase our ability to remain calm, think clearly, and maintain our wellbeing. Many studies indicate mindfulness improves our mental, emotional and physical health. On a mindful moment with Theresa McKee, you can learn how to practice mindfulness and enjoy its many benefits. Tune in for guided meditations and to hear tips and advice from some of the most respected experts in the fields of mental health and mindfulness. The world truly can be a better place. It all starts with a mindful moment.

Katie Ferraro (35m 55s):

Do they teach you that in the NICU? They're like stop looking at the monitor. That monitor's not gonna be at home when the baby's blue. Look at the baby. That's bad. The monitor's not gonna be there to tell you that. They're like, they're teaching you to retrain the way you act. Cuz again, these machines have been keeping your baby alive and now you're gonna like, let me take them home. Like it's very scary.

Chelsea Conaboy (36m 13s):

So right. Look at your baby and look at your baby. Parenting comes back to that. Look at your baby, what do they need? And

Katie Ferraro (36m 20s):

You keep saying that line like what is best for my kid right now? I love that because the answer is not on TikTok. I'm sorry. Like your kid can tell you the answer. And again, if it takes you a while to learn it and you're not always gonna see the signs. And we talk about that with Feeding cues, hunger and fullness cues. Like listen to your baby and I was just interviewing a pediatrician prior to this interview and we're talking about how with bottle Feeding, we teach a lot about responsive bottle Feeding. Like don't shove X number of ounces down your baby's throat. That's not the point. Learn to watch your baby hunger and fullness cues. And then when you start solid foods, it's an extension of those same responsive Feeding methods. If, you breastfeeding, your baby is full, they turn their head away from the breast. And like why in conventional adult-led spoon Feeding do we just strip away the baby's autonomy and start ramming purees of food down their mouth that they don't want.

Katie Ferraro (37m 7s):

Like if we let our baby tell us and then give them lots of time to learn how to eat, they'll get to that place. But the bidirectional stuff is really resonating with me cuz like the baby is teaching you how to chill too. Like listen, I'll eventually learn how to do this. You, you don't have to wipe my mouth when I'm trying to learn how to eat. I always say like, how would you like it If? you were trying to learn how to eat and this lady was like attacking you with her washcloth. Like the baby will tell you like, mom, I don't really like that, but it's not, they're nonverbal. Like you said, we're not used to communicating like that. so you are retraining your brain. So I could like talk your face off about this all day long. I love it. I love talking to journalists cuz sometimes you're like, I get nervous and when I meet a journalist for the first time I'm like, what if they can't talk?

Katie Ferraro (37m 47s):

Cause sometimes some journalist can only write about their stuff. But I saw you on other interviews, I was like, oh my gosh. And she's like a real life mom. And like we could talk about the, I mean, you know Neuroscience is very overwhelming. It's

Chelsea Conaboy (37m 57s):

Nice for you to say it's honestly taken me a lot of practice. No.

Katie Ferraro (37m 60s):

You're very good at it though. I think a lot and I know like the kind of messages we'll get after this, like I never thought about Neuroscience, but I really appreciate the way Chelsea did it. So tell us a little bit more about your book, where we can find it, what readers can walk away with it and who might be interested in reading this book for our audience.

Chelsea Conaboy (38m 17s):

Definitely the core audience is parents new or not so new or expected. I mean it, I want this book to be an opportunity for you to think about what Parenthood will mean for you, for your like internal life in relationship to your child, but also for your life at large. Like to think of through all of the questions that science hasn't answered yet also and but to reflect on what we know so far and where that could take us. The book is available anywhere, anywhere books are sold really online or in bookstores. They can also find out more about it at my website, which is mother brain book.com and they'll find a place there for them to sign up for my newsletter, which is called Between Us, where I, I explore lots of different topics about Parenthood and the stories we tell about what parenting is and how we could make better stories.

Katie Ferraro (39m 9s):

Awesome. Thank you so much Chelsea. I really enjoyed chatting with you.

Chelsea Conaboy (39m 14s):

Thank you Katie, me too.

Katie Ferraro (39m 14s):

Well I hope you guys enjoyed that conversation with Chelsea Conaboy. Again, she's the author of the Book of Mother Brain. It's at motherbrainbook.com and I wanna say a special thank you to our partners at AirWave Media. If, you guys like podcasts that feature food and science and using your brain. Check out some of the podcasts from AirWave. We're online at BLWpodcasts.com. Thank you so much for listening. I'll see you next time.

Sleep Tight Relax Podcast (39m 44s):

Hello friends. If, you are looking for a way to help your child relax and unwind before bed. The Sleep Tight Relax podcast may be just what you need created for kids, but appropriate for all ages. Our collection of dream inducing bedtime stories are free from distracting or exciting elements, making them perfect for sleep time listening, plus our relaxation techniques, calming nature sounds, and soothing music help create a peaceful environment that promotes restful sleep. Many listeners have stated that our audio has helped them decrease anxiety and get the best sleep they have had in years. Follow Sleep Tight. Relax wherever you listen to podcasts and add a relaxing and stress free way to end your family's day. Thank you.