Organic Dairy for Babies: Why to Switch with Britt Lundgren from @stonyfieldorganics

Britt Lundgren (45s):

And so to me, when you invest in organic at the grocery store, you're investing in your own health, but you're also investing in the health of the farmers that are doing that work to produce that product and the health of the communities that they're in. So it really has benefits all around

Katie Ferraro (60s):

Hey There! I'm Katie Ferraro, Registered Dietitian, college nutrition professor, and mom of seven specializing in baby-led weaning. Here on the Baby-Led Weaning Made Easy podcast, I help you strip out all of the noise and nonsense about feeding, leaving you with the confidence and knowledge you need to give your baby a safe start to solid foods using baby-led weaning. If you started feeding your baby cows' milk, dairy foods, I'm curious to know if you make a point to buy organic dairy or not. You might know cows' milk protein, that's one of the big nine allergenic foods. Those are the nine foods that account for about 90% of food allergy. And we have fairly good data to support early and often introduction of cows' milk, protein foods as a way to prevent milk allergy down the road.

Katie Ferraro (1m 46s):

So yes, babies can eat dairy foods. We just don't substitute fluid cows' milk in place of infant milk, breast milk or formula until the baby is 12 months. But then when your baby turns 12 months, you make that transition to fluid cows' milk, certainly in place of infant formula, eventually in place of breastfeeding whenever you decide to wean. But I know when you go to the grocery store that dairy aisle can be so overwhelming, right? There are so many options and it's hard to know which products to buy in whether or not your decisions even really matter or make a difference. They do. And my guest today is Britt Lundgren who's here to talk a little bit about organic dairy for babies. So Britt is the senior director of Sustainability and Government Affairs at Stonyfield Farm. Stonyfield is organic organic dairy brand founded by organic Pioneer and organic champion Gary Herford back in 1983.

Katie Ferraro (2m 31s):

A lot of you might have tried Stonyfield yogurt or milk and maybe not realize all of the impacts that that decision actually has. So we're going to talk a little bit about the organic dairy farming standard and the fact that to be honest, as a parent, it's important that when we're choosing organic dairy foods, these are foods that do not contain synthetic hormones or toxic pesticide residues. I know for me I'm pretty cheap just having kids. We buy a lot of food. It's definitely one of the few foods that I do buy organic. Now I think that those differences, especially regarding the hormones and the pesticide stuff, it's definitely enough for me to justify the higher price point. So I recently went to Vermont on a farm tour to learn more about organic dairy farming. I met Britt there.

Katie Ferraro (3m 11s):

We had so many interesting conversations about the benefits of organic dairy, a lot of which I, even though I'm a dietitian and have like basic understanding of organic farming, I really had no idea how nuanced organic dairy farming was prior to this trip. So I wanted to have Britt on to share some of these ideas because I know that you as parents and caregivers are also facing these same decisions when you're in the dairy aisle deciding which foods to buy for your babies. So this is not a sponsored or paid guest appearance with Stonyfield. They did sponsor the previous organic dairy farm that I went on, which I want to disclose. But this episode is not part of any paid or sponsored content on behalf of Stonyfield, I have learned so much from Britt who's also a mom and happened to do baby-led weaning with her daughter.

Katie Ferraro (3m 52s):

And I wanted to have Britt on to share some of these valuable insights about the dairy foods that we choose for our children. So with no further ado, here's our chat about Organic Dairy for Babies and Why to Switch with Britt Lundgren from Stonyfield organics.

Britt Lundgren (4m 9s):

Thanks for having me. So glad to be here.

Katie Ferraro (4m 11s):

Okay, before we get started talking about organic dairy, I remember when we first met, I told you I taught baby-led weaning and your response was quote, "I want to file a complaint about baby-led weaning." I was cracking up. I know you were like kind of kidding I think. But you just tell us a little bit about your experience doing baby-led weaning with your daughter if it's not too traumatizing now that she's a bit older.

Britt Lundgren (4m 30s):

Totally. Yeah. We chose baby-led weaning because it just made sense to us. You know, I mean babies made it so far we've only had like curated processed food for you know, a couple of decades, right? And so it just seemed like oh this is the logical way to feed your kid. And I loved the independent nature of it that you could give them like choices and that they would then like have more, you know, independence and how they choose what to eat. And yeah, so we had a lot of fun doing baby-led weaning. I'm going to say that I'm really glad that we have a dog. She's actually here with me now because the floor was a a disaster area. But you know, she kept it clean for us and it went really well.

Britt Lundgren (5m 13s):

Like Ada ate all tried all sorts of things and we thought like oh we're really on the road to having an adventurous eater. And somewhere, I guess it was probably like around the age of like three or four, she just started getting pickier and pickier and things like she used to eat salmon, she used to eat broccoli like I don't know, she's like narrowed down her realm of what she'll eat And I think, you know, I just have to trust that those things will come back in at some point. Right. And this is maybe just more about like having control again, which we, you know, wanted to teach her to have.

Katie Ferraro (5m 47s):

And she's in first grade, is that right? She's six, yeah. Yeah, there's a lot I like. I think I'll tell you why quadruplets are six and there's like so much control and I want to do it myself and you know, kind of starting to push your buttons. So maybe it's some of that. Are you concerned about her eating stuff now though? Or do you think it's just pretty typical kid stuff?

Britt Lundgren (6m 3s):

It's, it is typical kid stuff. I just wish that she would eat more vegetables. You know, she recently discovered the joys of hot lunch at school. This is her first year, she's in first grade now and she's like, Mom, it's amazing they have hot dogs and chicken nuggets and pizza. And I'm like oh God, not what I was doing for but like

Katie Ferraro (6m 24s):

Okay well at least we're here to talk about something that you do have control over and you know everything about.

Katie Ferraro (7m 28s):

So we wish you the best with your daughter. I'm glad you, I'm glad it wasn't like a decision that you regret. Cause honestly we meet a lot of people that are like, okay, my kid is kind of picky, but I'm still glad I did baby-led weaning. So I hope that's the situation. Okay, so we're here today to talk about organic dairy farming and organic dairy foods. Could you tell us a little bit about your job at Stonyfield organics, what that entails, and then how did you get into this line of work?

Britt Lundgren (7m 52s):

Yeah, sure. So I did Stonyfield work on Sustainability. I've been with the business for like 11 years now and started really focused on agriculture now, now my focus is broader at Leader Sustainability team. So I also work with the folks who do the manufacturing side of Sustainability and work on sustainable packaging and and things like that. But on the agriculture side, we're really looking at working closely with the farms that provide our milk to identify how they can improve their impact on the environment. And a lot of that is focused on climate change because we as a business have had a long, long time focus on reducing our greenhouse gas emissions and, and trying to understand the best ways to do that.

Britt Lundgren (8m 35s):

We know that like over half of our businesses emissions come from agriculture. So if we really want to make an impact on that, we have to work with our farms. So we spend a lot of time looking at what are the tools and techniques that We can help our farmers adopt so that they can identify the best ways that they can reduce emissions on their farm. Yeah, and I've been, I kind of have a convoluted career path, but after I graduated from college I worked on an organic dairy farm in Central Maine for a summer and they had this amazing farm store and bakery and they made cheese and so I was on that side of the street, I was helping to make cheese and weeding the organic vegetable garden and things like that.

Britt Lundgren (9m 16s):

But it was really like a, a front row seat into just how hard it is to make a living as a small farm in America today. And that got me thinking about like, well why is that? And I thought I wanted to be a farmer when I started that job. And I pretty quickly realized like, oh, I don't have land, like nobody in my family has land and like how am I going to get health insurance and like, you know, all these things just made it seem so daunting. And it got me really focused on like the, you know, the societal dynamics of why that is right. And eventually I landed in this graduate program at Tufts called Agriculture Food and Environment, which is actually at their nutrition school. So I was kind of adjacent to nutrition, it wasn't my focus but yeah, it's like an interdisciplinary science and policy program.

Britt Lundgren (10m 1s):

And that led me to working on agricultural policy down in DC for about five years. I worked for an environmental organization on the Farm bill and on climate legislation. Then this job opened up at Stonyfield and I jumped at the chance to like come back to the northeast where I'm from and also just be a part of a business that has such a long history of being committed to family farms and to the environment. It just was, it was an opportunity I couldn't turn down.

Katie Ferraro (10m 30s):

I can echo what you said about the like difficulty making a living. One thing that was so eye opening to me when we were on the Stonyfield farm tour was how hard the families work that they never get a day off of. We are talking about labor shortages, you know, throughout many different industries. But the couple from Molly Brook Farm who told us that they had not, they just won Vermont dairy Farm of the Year and they were, it was a big deal for them to take for the husband to take one night off and go and celebrate. They hadn't been on a vacation in 15 years. It's like, I mean they're very committed to the work that they do, but it's not like you can just have somebody sub for you to milk the cows' twice a day

Britt Lundgren (11m 4s):

Right now. You really have to love the lifestyle to do that job and people really do love it, right? Like they're doing it because they love it, they love the cows', they love being on the land. But it's, it's some of the hardest work I've seen. And it also, like dairy farmers are just some of the smartest people I know. Like they have to be good at so many different things. If you think about it, like you have to be able to take care of the cows. So, you have to understand animal health and animal nutrition and then you have to manage your milking parlor, which is like plumbing and carpentry

Katie Ferraro (11m 33s):

And hygiene and sanitation and technology. Like it's a lot.

Britt Lundgren (11m 37s):

Yeah. And then you're getting those cows out on pasture and you have to be like managing for soil health and you have to understand what's going on with the like interactions between the plants and the soil. I mean it's really just a, it's a not a doll job that's for sure.

Katie Ferraro (11m 51s):

Well when we were on the farm tour, I was mentioning to a couple of the other influencers in the content, people just in passing, like I don't always as a habit buy organic dairy foods for my family and I definitely got some looks which you know, to each their own. But I do have to say before the tour I wasn't fully aware of how organic dairy farming differs so much from conventional dairy farming. And then why is parents in particular, you know, we should be paying attention. So before we get into the nutrition particulars, could you tell us a little bit about the organic dairy farming process and then how does that differ from non-organic or conventional dairy farming?

Britt Lundgren (12m 21s):

Yeah, there's a couple of big key differences and the first is that the organic standard prohibits the use of antibiotics and synthetic growth hormones in dairy production. It does have a provision for animal welfare. So if a cow is really sick and the alternative remedies that the farm is using aren't helping her, the farm does still have to treat that animal with antibiotics, but then she can't stay in the herd. So she would get hurt sold to a, a neighboring conventional dairy farms. Usually what happens there. But that prohibition on antibiotics and hormones is important because it's, it really puts the, the responsibility back on the farmer to be proactive about managing for cow health because they don't want to take that risk that the animal is going to get sick.

Britt Lundgren (13m 6s):

So they have to make sure that the cows are just in the healthiest possible environment and in really stress-free conditions. And it means that they produce a little bit less milk than a conventional dairy cow does because the levels of milk that conventional dairy cows are producing are really high and that is, you know, stressful on their, their body. Just the same as when you're lactating when you're a mom. You know, like when you're really producing a lot of milk you have to be like taking really good care of yourself and having really good nutrition. And so that's one of the ways it difference. The other big difference is that the organic standard has a requirement for access to pasture. So every organic cow has to be able to go outside every single day of the year that the weather makes it possible, as long as it's not like dangerous to go outside.

Britt Lundgren (13m 49s):

And then for 120 days a year they have to have access to pasture and that pasture has to be providing a substantial portion of their diet. So they're actually calculating how much dry matter the cows are getting when they're out there grazing and doing the math on like what percent of their diet is coming from that grass to make sure that they're in compliance and they have to be able to show that to the organic inspector when they come around once a year. And that access to pasture is really important for cow health and it's also really important for the environmental benefits of organic. So there's a lot of, a lot of great reasons behind that. And then to me, the other thing that's I think really important about organic dairy is that it has a much more stable pay price than the conventional milk price is.

Britt Lundgren (14m 34s):

So in conventional dairy, you might see stories in the news sometimes about like conventional dairy is going out of business because the price of milk is really low, there's too much being produced and the price goes down and you know, organic isn't perfect, but the pay price in organic does a much better job of reflecting the cost of production and it's not on the rollercoaster that we see for conventional agriculture. And so to me, when you invest in organic at the grocery store, you're investing in your own health, but you're also investing in the health of the farmers that are doing that work to produce that product and the health of the communities that they're in. So it really has benefits just like all around.

Katie Ferraro (16m 15s):

So Britt, I think, you know, as a mom and dietitian, certainly the lack of synthetic hormones and organic milk is very convincing for me. Like, okay, if I can't afford all foods to be organic, you have to prioritize what are the ones, And I always think about this in produce, like I live in California where the tomatoes taste awful and the apples are terrible, but if you buy organic they taste better. So yes, they're better for the environment, but I buy them for a different benefit, which is okay. They taste better when it comes to the organic milk. Okay. The lack of synthetic hormones, again, very convincing. I know just from basic nutrition and life stuff, when you go to the grocery store and you even look at the non-organic, conventionally produced milk today, for the most part does say or has that little label made from cows' not treated with growth hormone.

Katie Ferraro (16m 55s):

And remember when we were out on the farm, you were telling me about a study that found though that even the conventional type of milk that will say grown without growth hormone or made from cows' that are not treated with growth hormone, it still had detectable levels of hormone in it. So could you just tell us how that works? Cause I think it's kind of confusing just as your run of the milk consumer.

Britt Lundgren (17m 11s):

Yeah, it was even confusing to the, the people who did the study. So it used to be much more common for conventional dairy farms to use conventional or to use synthetic growth hormones. And Stonyfield was actually the first business to ask farmers to pledge not to use them. So back when Stonyfield first started, there wasn't enough organic milk. And so they went out and they were, they were looking to make a natural product and that was the thing. They said, "Well, we at least want to make sure we're not adding, you know, we don't have that being used in the process." And that label has since become widely adopted. A lot of dairy processors ask their farms not to use synthetic growth hormones. But a couple of years ago the organic center teamed up with Emory University and they wanted to look at milk on the shelf and compare it for levels of growth hormones, levels of antibiotic residue and levels of pesticide residue.

Britt Lundgren (18m 6s):

And so they went out around the country and they got 35 samples of conventional milk, 35 samples of organic. They got different brands, different regions. So they really tried to have like a representative sample. It wasn't a huge sample, but it was a, you know, real mix of fluid milk products. And they tested all these samples and what they found was that the conventional milk samples still had around 20 times higher levels of growth hormones than the organic milk samples. So all cows' produce growth hormones, right? Whenever you test any kind of milk, it's going to have some level of growth hormones in it because that's just naturally occurring in the cow. But there's, you know, there's something going on there.

Britt Lundgren (18m 46s):

Is it that people are still using these or is it that the way that conventional cows' are being raised just causes their body to naturally make more of these hormones? Like we don't actually know the answer to that question, but to me it's one of those reasons that makes you say, Oh, well if I can choose organic, this is one, you know, one more benefit that I'm getting.

Katie Ferraro (19m 6s):

It's funny that you say that that hormone labeling stuff is kind of standard now, because I remember when that came out. I was in graduate school at uc, Berkeley in the School of Public Health there in the early two thousands. And it was, we went on a dairy farm tour and it was so controversial. And then we actually ended up studying Stonyfield and Gary's like whole philosophy as a case study in the benefits of organic that extend beyond the quote unquote nutrition. But like that whole battle of the, the label made from cows not treated with growth hormone was so controversial, even just, you know, 20 years ago. Yeah. So I know there are numerous environmental benefits to organic versus conventional. As a dietitian, I always, you know, parents are asking, Should I buy organic? And you do what works for you? Again, there definitely is that cost differential and we hate to discourage conventional produce if it's, you know, in lieu of having organic junk food because you say, you know, if if it looks like a cookie and it tastes like a cookie, even if it's an organic cookie, it's still a cookie.

Katie Ferraro (19m 57s):

So as far as the nutrition content goes, you know, if you can say all right between, you know, a strawberry, a tomato, if you look at conventional versus organic, one's not going to have appreciably more let's say vitamin C. But you are telling me about some other research that does show that there's actually, we're looking at some differences in the nutrient content of organic versus conventional produce. But I also wanted to ask you how that differs in dairy, because I was pretty surprised to learn it there actually is a significant difference in the nutrition content of organic dairy foods compared to conventional. So could you kind of expand on that from a nutrition standpoint for us?

Britt Lundgren (20m 30s):

Yeah, totally. And first of all, I just want to say that like the organic standard, the national organic standard has only been in effect since 2002 and we really just don't have as much research as we would like on all of these questions. And we're, so we're starting to gather more data and it's really exciting cause even when I started this job like 10 years ago, we had a lot less information about these things than we have now. So I can only imagine what we're going to know 10 or 20 years into the future. But yeah, when it comes to produce, we know that organic produce has higher levels of antioxidants and they've found that it's about 69, 70% higher levels of antioxidants on average.

Britt Lundgren (21m 11s):

And antioxidants of course are really important for fighting inflammation in the body. And it's really fascinating because the reason this happens with organic produce is because it gets stressed by its growing environment. So there's more likely to be insect pests and there's more likely to be weeds. And those things cause the plant to react to try how is the plant going to survive these different pressures? And the plant puts out different chemicals and some of those chemicals are these antioxidants that we actually want more of in our diet. So it's a, something that we're still learning more about all the time, but kind of a cool benefit from organic production practices. For dairy, the nutritional difference comes in because the cows are eating grass.

Britt Lundgren (21m 55s):

So conventional cows eat a diet that's high in corn and soy and those things, corn and soy are high in omega six. Fatty acids grass is really high in omega three fatty acids. And so when cows' are actively out grazing on grass, they're getting more omega threes in their diet and those omega threes are coming through in the milk of the cows'. So when you compare the omega six to omega three ratio, do you have an organic whole milk because you, omega three is a fat So, you have to keep the fat in to get this nutritional benefit.

Katie Ferraro (22m 30s):

And for our audience that's relevant because we only offer whole milk products to children up until age two. So we don't do any reduced fat or non fat. So this is certainly relevant.

Britt Lundgren (22m 38s):

Yeah, totally. So for organic whole milk products, we know that omega threes and omega sixes are in the right ratio. That's what you want to have in your diet. And that we know that omega three fatty acids are 60% higher in organic home milk than they are in conventional.

Katie Ferraro (22m 54s):

What are the environmental benefits of organic dairy production? You talked a little bit about soil health and the emissions, I mean without, I guess getting too technical. Is that the extent of it? Or are there more?

Britt Lundgren (23m 5s):

Yeah, so we know that organic dairy creates a lot of different benefits for the environment and that also ties largely back to pastures. So when cows are out on pasture, they're distributing their manure on pasture and that manure is getting incorporated into the soil and building what we call organic matter in the soil, which means that the soil is sequestering more carbon from the atmosphere, which creates a benefit for climate change. It also means that that manure isn't collecting in some giant lagoon somewhere where it's causing environmental risk and pollution to the atmosphere from that lagoon. So there's benefits there. And then there's the benefits of not using pesticides, which have a lot of ripple effects out in the environment.

Britt Lundgren (23m 50s):

So when you use a pesticide on a farm, you know, it might help you deal with a particular insect PE or a weed that you're having, but that pesticide is also going to go out into the environment and have other effects. And it could have negative effects on pollinators or amphibians, or it could have ne have negative effects on the firm workers who are applying those chemicals. So we know, especially chemicals like atrazine have some pretty significant known negative health effects and they're primarily impacting the people who are applying those chemicals. And so when you choose organic, you're choosing to keep those chemicals out of the environment. And so on a net basis, that really starts to add up across all of the acres of organic

Katie Ferraro (24m 34s):

And you're keeping them out of your child's body, which again, for parents listening, I think that's, you know, you're moving towards an era where you're going to be transitioning from infant milk to calves milk and you, you're at the grocery store and there's so many options. And so a little bit about the farm tour that we were on, you had mentioned previously that the price point tends to be more stable in organic farming, and I wasn't aware of that either, but you could really sense that. I know when we were talking to Sarah and Jimmy Ackerman at their dairy farm, they had actually done the conversion. They were family, dairy farm owners, and his grandparents, I believe had started it. And he made the transition from a conventional farming operation to an organic one, which is certainly a costly endeavor and time consuming. They said at the end of the day, especially after they signed on with Stonyfield, that they were so happy that they did it because there is more stability in the price point.

Katie Ferraro (25m 21s):

Could you share a little bit about the process of making the transition? Like if there's so many benefits, how come all dairy farms are not organic dairy farms?

Britt Lundgren (25m 29s):

Yeah, well there's a couple different reasons. So if you want to transition from conventional to organic dairy, it takes three years to transition your land. And that's so that you give the land time to adjust to not having pesticides and synthetic fertilizers being applied. And then there's a one year transition period for your cows' and they make that transition period shorter for the cows' because it's so expensive to feed organic feed. It's like three or four times as expensive and you're not getting the organic premium yet in your pay price. And so that would be a really rough transition. And during that time we provide farms with an extra payment to get them through.

Britt Lundgren (26m 11s):

And so a farm really needs a dairy farm that wants to transition, really needs to know who they're going to sell their milk to at the other end of that transition. Because if they make it all the way through and then they don't have a buyer, they can't like go back to conventional for a little while until they have an organic buyer. So it's like once you commit, you're like, you're in So, you need to know where you're going to sell that milk. And so, so that like a farm has to have enough pasture to be able to get their cows out to meet the pasture requirement. And some dairies just aren't set up that way. Like they don't have that land right next to their barn and so they can't transition to organic and then some, and sometimes we don't need more organic milk, like it depends on how fast demand is increasing. And so for the past couple years, demand hasn't been outpacing supply, and so most processors haven't been taking transitioning farms.

Britt Lundgren (26m 58s):

So we haven't seen a lot of farms making the transition So, you really have to like plan for it if you're going to do it. And then I think a lot of farms don't do it because they worry like, oh, but what if I need to give a cow antibiotics? And I hear it over and over again when I talk to farms that have made the transition that this was their biggest fear and once they made the transition, they realize that they hardly needed antibiotics at all. I know one farm who, who talks about how he spends more money on vet bills for the family dogs than he does for his entire herd of cows', right? Because they're just, they're healthy, like they don't need the vet. So it's, it holds people back sometimes, but when they do it, they find it wasn't that big of a deal.

Katie Ferraro (27m 37s):

Britt, do you have any other points or considerations or comments for parents who are listening who might be considering, okay, do I go the organic route for choosing dairy foods for my baby? Do I stick with conventional? I mean, we've covered a lot of the benefits, but just curious if there's anything in closing you wanted to say or add.

Britt Lundgren (27m 54s):

Yeah, I always say that organic is not an all or nothing proposition, right? It's about doing what you can and finding what fits in your diet, finding what fits in your budget. And I think for parents it's thinking about like what are the foods you feed your your child the most and thus, you know, or maybe exposing them to more of a certain thing if you're not buying organic. And so to me that's a really good reason to choose dairy because kids are drinking a ton of milk or eating a lot of yogurt. And as a result, when you choose organic, you know, you're protecting your kids from the hormone residues and the antibiotic residues, et cetera. And getting those higher levels of omega threes into their diet, which is, you know, also a great benefit.

Britt Lundgren (28m 37s):

I love to point people to the environmental working groups, Dirty Dozen lists. It's a really great resource for produce and fruit look, and it looks at the level of pesticide residues that are on fruits and vegetables when they're on the shelf in the grocery store and ranks the ones that have the highest level of residues and the clean 15, which have the lowest level of residues. And that can help you decide, you know, to budget for like, okay, I'm always going to choose organic strawberries, but I'm, you know, I'm not worried about buying organic avocados, you know, because they're low on the list. So it's a helpful tool for sorting out produce decisions. Where

Katie Ferraro (29m 15s):

Can our audience go to learn more about your work that you're doing in sustainability with the team at Stonyfield?

Britt Lundgren (29m 20s):

Yeah, the Stonyfield website is a great resource for more details about what we're doing on Sustainability. We've just published our impact report for our work in 2021, so we always look back a year with that report, but it's a great summary of all the different things we have going on with our farms and to address climate change and to improve our packaging and things like that.

Katie Ferraro (29m 43s):

Thank you so much for the conversation. All of the information has been great chatting with you, Britt. Thanks

Britt Lundgren (29m 47s):

So much for having me. This was so fun.

Katie Ferraro (29m 50s):

Well, I hope you guys enjoyed that conversation with Britt Lundgren from Stonyfield. I really liked her approach and her statement that, you know, organic doesn't have to be in all or nothing sort of thing. You can make these decisions as they fit your budget, as they fit your preference for helping the environment as they fit your palette for taste, whatever the case may be. Thank you Britt for sharing the information about organic dairy, and I'll link up all of the references that she mentioned in this episode that'll be in the show notes, which you can find at blwpodcast.com/272. Thanks so much for listening. See you next time.