Mealtime Meltdowns: How to Reset Your Mindset with @drbeckygoodinside Becky Kennedy, PhD

Becky Kennedy (1m 0s):

We all are more likely to explore. When we feel safe. Safety is a prerequisite for exploration. So if a baby is sitting and it's a stressful situation, "no, you'll just sit. Come on. I made you this." Well, if you think about in a baby's body, forget food, their body goes threat, threat, yelling, anger, no safety, no safety, no safety. Even the likelihood then they're gonna try a food is so much lower because they don't have that baseline of safety. So one of the things I always tell parents is number one, expect a short duration in the beginning of sitting, it's a new skill to sit still and it's hard. And number two, I want to keep stress as low as I can. Keeping stress low around food dynamics is much more important than what a baby puts into their mouth.

Becky Kennedy (1m 45s):

Because if we think long term, keeping stress low is what's gonna allow a baby to explore in the way that's right for their temperament. And that's really what I'm invested in.

Katie Ferraro (1m 53s):

Hey, there I'm Katie Ferraro, Registered dietitian, college nutrition professor and mom of seven specializing in Baby-Led Weaning. Here on the Baby-Led Weaning Made Easy podcast, I help you strip out all of the noise and nonsense about feeding, leaving you with the confidence and knowledge you need to give your baby a safe start to solid foods using Baby-Led Weaning. Moms, dads, grandparents, caregivers, nannies, aunts, and uncles, whoever you are. If you're feeding a baby, your mindset matters when it comes time to starting solid foods with your baby. And it's no secret that this can be a stressful time for parents.

Katie Ferraro (2m 36s):

It can be an anxiety inducing time. It can be a confusing time, especially due to all of the misinformation out there about the safest and the best and the most evidence-based way to start your baby with solid foods. When at the end of the day, babies have been learning how to eat modified versions of the same foods the rest of their family eats for millennia. And yet we oftentimes feel so much stress and anxiety about this. And why is that? Well, my guest today is here to talk about how to reset your mindset, especially when it comes to Mealtime Meltdowns. Many of you may be familiar with her work. This is Dr. Becky Kennedy. She's on Instagram @drbeckygoodinside. She is a clinical psychologist. She's a mom of three and she's the founder of kind of the parenting portal "Good Inside."

Katie Ferraro (3m 21s):

And she always talks about how, when she first started out, she was doing the popular behavior first kind of reward and punishment model of parenting coaching. And then it really struck her like these don't feel good. I feel bad about myself. They're not working. So she kind of reframed a lot of, I would say, what's now kind of generally accepted in the parenting space, her theories of attachment and mindfulness and emotional regulation. She does a lot of internal family system stuff. And I think sometimes it can kind of, I'm not a clinical psychologist and sometimes the clinical psychology stuff. I'm like, oh my gosh, this is too much for me. But I have to say that, especially with Dr. Becky Kennedy's work, I really get actionable, especially scripts and language that I can use as a parent because I have never been to this next stage of parenting, whatever it may be, just like you have perhaps never been to the next stage of starting solid foods with your baby.

Katie Ferraro (4m 12s):

And so what language to use in order to feel less anxious and less nervous and less scared and less out of control is very helpful. So in this episode, Dr. Becky Kennedy is gonna be sharing a little bit about kind of some of the behavior that we can expect from six and seven month old babies. What does it mean when your baby's not eating? What if they won't sit in the high chair? How does that reflect on you as a parent? It doesn't, you are not a bad parent. She says that probably like a million times here. So if you're at all feeling not so hot about your parenting skills today, listen to this episode because I came away being like, I am an amazing parent, even though a lot of times, we may not feel like that. So with no further ado, I wanna invite Dr. Becky Kennedy on she's talking about Mealtime Meltdowns and how to reset your mindset.

Katie Ferraro (4m 54s):

Here's Dr. Becky Kennedy. She's "Dr. Becky good inside" on social if you guys are following her as well.

Becky Kennedy (5m 3s):

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be talking with you, Katie.

Katie Ferraro (5m 7s):

So I just finished your new book, good inside a guide to becoming the parent. You want to be, I'm so excited to chat with you, but before we get started, I know the term like parenting expert can be a little off putting for some professionals, but how did you get involved in this line of work parenting? And what's your background and why did you essentially start your business?

Becky Kennedy (5m 27s):

Amazing place to start. So it, it is interesting. People have called me parenting experts and then I think, or a parenting expert, and I had said, I guess in enough media interviews, like I don't like that term or something. And so recently someone was interviewing me and they said, I know I'm not supposed to call you that, you know? And I was, and I, I said, yeah, I just, I love to think and learn. Like, I, I always like the state of not knowing with families. Cause I feel like it's how we always get to solutions. And, and actually she said to me, isn't your whole thing "two things are true?" Can't you be an expert who also loves learning? And I said, wow, you you've got me there. So yes, I'm more comfortable with that term. But really what got me into my really almost like obsession with family systems and parents were a couple things.

Becky Kennedy (6m 9s):

So a clinical psychologist, I trained kids and adults, but pretty soon into my private practice when I had already had my PhD, I really focused on working with adults cuz I found when I was doing play therapy with kids, I personally found the work with their parents to be both more rewarding and something I think I was better at. And I kept thinking, wow, well, if I'm only seeing the child, I see them 45 minutes a week. Maybe if I work with a parent and they change just a couple things about their environment that might have even more of an impact on a child given they're with them, however many minutes more during the week. So that thought was always with me. And then I, I really noticed in my private practice, the way I worked with adults, it was always about helping them change things that were adaptive early on and then ceased being adaptive in adult years.

Becky Kennedy (6m 59s):

But understandably, our body is hesitant to let go of the patterns that were put in place to protect us. So that was always the framework I had. And then yet all the popular parenting models. I remember thinking this doesn't follow the same framework at all. This is so punitive. This is so harsh or there are models that talk all about the feelings, but they don't really give parents like a way to actually teach their kid the skills they need. Right. And I remember thinking what if I took all of my ideas about how I worked with adults and just like reversed, engineered them to parents so that parents could wire their kids from the start with the same skills and circuits that the adults I knew were working really hard to rewire in themselves.

Becky Kennedy (7m 40s):

And that's what really led me to being where I am today.

Katie Ferraro (7m 43s):

So in your book, I particularly enjoyed the chapter called the early years matter. And I think that's where a lot of our audience is. And you talk a bit about psychologist John Bowlby, who formulated attachment theory in the 1970s, which he described attachment as the system of proximity, basically those more close to the parent, more likely to survive; those more distance are not. For our audience who are mostly parents and caregivers of babies, somewhere between age six to 12 months of age, any thoughts or comments or attachment lessons that may be of use for this group of parents and caregivers?

Becky Kennedy (8m 12s):

Ah, so many. So first of all, anybody who's listening to this podcast, I know is a parent who really cares. Like they're a parent probably who loves to learn, who loves to think and who is approaching this job as a parent, probably the way you would approach any job in life, like your jobs matter. Right? And so I just wanna start right there. And then yes, the idea that the early years matter, I think is really important. Cause I know people say like, oh, they don't remember these years anyway or who remembers their life before age three. But I think we have a really limited view of the term memory, right? Because I, I always see it exactly the opposite. Your body today is the same body you had when you were six months, your baby who's now let's say nine months, they're gonna have that exact same body they're living in that same house, their whole life and our bodies don't forget.

Becky Kennedy (8m 60s):

Our bodies store, what happens. And then they develop circuits accordingly. Now you don't remember much with your words until age two and a half, but what that means is you remember the early years in a much more powerful way, you remember it with your body. When you react to someone in your adulthood and you think, wow, why am I so upset that I told my friend I was upset about something and she forgot to call me. That probably does go all the way back to the early years. You don't quote, remember with your words, it probably goes back to responsiveness and other things. So just remind yourself now my child's gonna remember everything I'm doing with them in their body circuitry. And that's the most powerful form of memory at all.

Becky Kennedy (9m 40s):

I think early on, it's powerful to think about our job and, and this is true throughout a kid's life in a couple buckets. So a parent's job in my mind is to provide boundaries, validation, and empathy, and all of this applies. And you can get so much bang for your buck, thinking about your job when you have a young baby. So what does that mean? Well, let's say my baby is starting to crawl and is, I don't know, going to try to stick their finger in an outlet. I Don know something that's like a, you know,

Katie Ferraro (10m 7s):

Put a jolly rancher in their mouth would be our equivalent here,

Becky Kennedy (10m 10s):

A jolly rancher in their mouth. Perfect. Okay. And they start crying. Right. So, okay. If I think about my job, I might say, I'm not gonna let you put something dangerous in your mouth. That's the boundary. Boundaries establish safety for kids. And I always say at the end of the day, my number one job is to keep my kids safe. That is my number one job. I always ground myself in that. Now My baby is still crying. And I think about the other parts of my job, validation, empathy. So I might say, oh, you wanna make decisions for yourself? I know. Or you really wanted that jolly rancher. I get it, it's so hard to want things and not get them. Meanwhile, I'm still holding up my boundary. I think so many times we believe almost unconsciously that my kids' feelings should kind of dictate my decisions or my decisions should dictate their feelings.

Becky Kennedy (10m 58s):

But really just to separate them as early as possible is huge. I have the job of setting a boundary and empathizing and validating my kids' feelings. My kid actually has a job of expressing their feelings. So given they're expressing their feelings through their distress, it happens to be a terribly inconvenient, probably unenjoyable moment, but everyone is really doing their jobs. And I actually think in Good Inside, what we're really shifting for parents is they start to see their parenting wins, not as what their kids are doing, but having clarity in their role. And when you really start to think about your parenting wins as wait, do I know what to do? Do I know what my job is here? We start to feel like sturdy leaders, even amidst the mess and the cries and the stress.

Becky Kennedy (11m 38s):

And that truly I think is the best feeling of all and is what our kids need from us.

Katie Ferraro (11m 42s):

So could you put that in context of Mealtime? You have a baby, a baby I was just working for example, with a new family yesterday, I've fed thousands of babies and every single one is different. And this one, six and a half months sitting up on our own, definitely ready from a developmental nutrition standpoint to start solid foods wanted absolutely nothing to do with being in that high chair. And then the mom is stressing out cuz the baby's crying and the mom's like, I Don't know what to do. I feel so bad. It's like, it's not your job to feel bad that your baby doesn't wanna eat right now. When your baby is having a Mealtime meltdown, especially early on before developmentally, they're able, you have to give them lots of time to learn how to eat. We know that, but when you're in the moment, you can feel like you're doing a bad job. How can we apply that boundary validation, empathy framework to Mealtime Meltdowns for babies?

Becky Kennedy (12m 26s):

So let's start before, right? Cause everyone listening here, Mealtime is a stressful, emotional time for a parent. Especially when you have a baby, you're always thinking how do I nurture them and sustain them? And it's so easy to take what a baby puts in their mouth and swallows as some barometer of whether I'm doing a good job as a parent. And even just knowing. Wow. Wow. Yeah, I totally do that. It's like if My baby eats something, it's it really does feel like I'm a good mom. And if My baby does not eat something and rejects it, it feels like I'm a bad dad. Right? Right. Like it really can feel like that. So reminders of whoa, my goodness as a parent has nothing to do with my baby's food consumption is a start and helps us differentiate my child for myself.

Becky Kennedy (13m 7s):

So let's say, you know, you're feeding your kid in 10 minutes. I would truly take a moment, put your feet on the ground, place your hand on your heart and say to yourself, okay, what's my job? What is my job? Because I'm gonna look to the situation of feeding from my job to evaluate kind of how I did. So what's a parent's job, a parent's job applied to Mealtime. And a lot of this I think comes from Ellyn Satter's work too, which I find

Katie Ferraro (13m 30s):

Who is also a Registered Dietitian. And so my audience is very familiar with her division of responsibility and feeding theory and this messaging about your job.

Becky Kennedy (13m 39s):

So I think your job at Mealtime is to say, I set the boundaries. I decide where and when my child is eating and what. So let's say I put out like a steamed carrot. Okay. And it's 12:00 PM. And my baby's in their high chair. I wanna say to myself before My baby does anything, Becky I've done my job. Like I have actually done my job. If I was in the workplace and I did my job and my colleague was kind of like, you know, I don't know, slacking off. I don't think I'd say to myself, oh Becky, I'm the worst. I'd be like, well, okay, well I did my job, like that person's not doing their job, but that's not my job. So important. I did my job. I put My baby in the high chair. I decided 12 o'clock makes sense.

Becky Kennedy (14m 19s):

And I gave them their food. I am kind of like done for now. Okay. Now My baby looks totally uninterested. I think the key, and I would almost visualize, is watch how much it seems like they're disinterest travels outta their body and almost feels like a message to me. You're not a good mom. You're not doing your job. And we wanna talk to that message like, whoa, My baby is following their body's cues. It's their job actually to figure out what they wanna eat and when. My job is to put it out and offer it in a safe way. But their job is actually to figure out whether they wanna eat and how much. Now, again, is this annoying? It's annoying. It's so annoying when we put out food, especially we're like I have to go somewhere.

Becky Kennedy (15m 2s):

I don't wanna revisit this in half an hour. Like, And again, me and my co-founder Erica, we always talk about this. We're like the word inconvenient just needs to be in parents' minds. Like this is a terribly inconvenient situation, but having kids is pretty inconvenient. Like it just is cuz you're dealing with another human.

Katie Ferraro (15m 18s):

Yeah. And they have to eat. And the food doesn't magically appear on the table like that is, you know, your two truths, like that is a truth. The healthful, wholesome food doesn't magically appear. And it's a huge inconvenience. I love that language.

Becky Kennedy (15m 29s):

Yeah. Right. Like I have to do it. And yet like here's my child rejecting it. Right. I think we have to also, you know, a mantra I find really useful to calm my own body when we're triggered in anyone who finds themself, getting really overwhelmed in those situations. There's something triggering, right? So I think a mantra that's helpful is I am safe. This isn't an emergency. I can cope with this. I am safe. This isn't an emergency. I can cope with this. My kid not eating again, inconvenient, annoying and not an emergency.

Katie Ferraro (15m 59s):

But if I may, I think a lot of parents internalize it. It is an emergency cuz they get these messages like six months of age, your baby needs all this Iron because now your breast milk is no longer sufficient and they miss one meal and they're like, she's not getting enough. He's not getting enough. And that's when they resort to force feeding. And that's what we're really trying to help parents realize is that one meal is just a snapshot. It's not a reflection of your baby's overall nutrition or you and your job as a parent.

Becky Kennedy (16m 22s):

Yeah. I think one of the things we need to do as parents and this probably sounds like a little paradoxical, cause someone would be like Becky, you're part of this, you know, putting ideas out there. But I think anyone we get guidance from, an Instagram account, a membership, a book, I think like after consuming some of that person's content. I really think you wanna pause and check in and say to yourself, does this feel fear mongering to me? Like how do I experience this information? Do I get more wound up? Does it feel like there's one way to do things or do I feel like I'm learning information to give me a wider range of how to do things? Does this feel anxiety producing? Does this feel empowering? Right. And I think that's really information to be like, does this information serve me?

Becky Kennedy (17m 5s):

Right. We don't have to serve it. You don't have to get information from everyone. Right? Like you can unfollow someone and, and I will put myself in the category if you're like following Dr. Becky Good Inside makes me feel horrible. Like, I really mean this, unfollow me. I don't mean that in an aggressive way. I really mean that in like a connecting with you, like your mental health and working on you, feeling like the sturdy leader of your family, nothing is more important than that. And you're allowed to dictate what information, what people help me get there and what information people don't. Because I can promise you no information is more important than that feeling in your body. That is what matters most.

Becky Kennedy (17m 45s):

I think one more thing about, you know, My baby didn't eat like, you know, Ugh, is it such an emergency? Right. And I think about food in a really psychological way. Right? Food is really the only thing a baby can really control. What goes into my body. Right? And then the potty ages it's like, can I control what, and when, and where goes out of my body? They're like basic bodily functions. But beyond nutrition, what a kid is really learning is do I know my body signals better than other people? Or do other people actually have a better idea of what's going on inside me than I do. So now let's fast forward. And your, I don't know, let's say like your 16 year old daughter is that some like high school party and there's some person who's like, Hey, come home with me.

Becky Kennedy (18m 32s):

Like, you know, and your daughter's like, you know what? Like I Don't, I don't want to, like, that seems too fast right now. Let's say someone says, which they might like, you're making such a big deal. Come on. Like, come on. It's no big deal. We're having fun. Now. You know what circuit is gonna activate in her body? The same circuit that we're building early on, not from a one time interaction, but from patterns where your daughter's really gonna scan her body and wonder, wait, what have I learned about my feelings and my signals? Do I tend to, misestimate how I feel. Do other people actually have a better idea than I do? Or do I know, am I the only one in my body? Am I the only one who can know what I want? And I want my daughter at 16 to have that circuit. And then she'd say to that person, like, okay, forget going home with you.

Becky Kennedy (19m 12s):

Like I'm not even like, you're actually gaslighting me. Like how could you know, what's a big deal. I said, no, that's what I want. And these circuits are built around food because we do food a million times a day. So when your child is saying, no, it's really empowering for you to think I'm fast forwarding to my kid when they're 16, this like, like forget the nutrition in this moment. Like I wanna say back to them, wow, there's something about this carrot you don't like, I believe you. Okay. You'll know when you're in the mood to eat something, we'll figure it out together. And like, it really gives your child the deep message to feel safe, to feel confident down the road. And they feel seen and validated in the moment, which if they are hungry, they probably need to feel those foundational feelings to explore in the first place.

Katie Ferraro (19m 54s):

And I love that concept of who knows whose body better. Because a lot of times parents put this pressure on themselves. There are three ounces of a puree, kale, which is not really kale, just apple sauce with green food coloring. And I feel obligated to get this arbitrary amount of food into you, the baby, when at the end of the day, if we're following responsive feeding practices and observing for baby's cues, they're gonna tell us what they want and how much it's like a lot easier to just let them tell you how they're feeling on the inside because our babies are inherently programmed to know, and to learn how to recognize and respond to their own hunger and fullness cues. And it takes a lot of work off of our shoulders. Like so not to take the lazy mom's approach, but like, it's actually easier if you just let your baby do the thing that they were hardwired and biologically capable of doing.

Becky Kennedy (20m 38s):

Yeah. You know, it's interesting. We just, I just refiled my potty workshop, which it's all the same stuff here. And I think about a mantra. I give parents there. This is my child's process. Not mine. I'm here to support, not control or take over. I'm just gonna say that again. Cause I think all of it, right? It's like literally the exact same thing, right? This is my child's process. Not my own. I am here to support, not control or take over.

Katie Ferraro (21m 4s):

Let's talk about anxiety for a moment because a lot of our parents and caregivers listening do have anxiety about the transition to solid foods for their baby. And sometimes, you know, they'll tell me, Katie, I worry. I'm gonna project my own, you know, problematic food behaviors or issues or food stuff onto My baby. Or sometimes they're nervous about having to start cooking real foods when that, to be real is not a priority for them in their adult life. So any suggestions for kind of clearing the air with regards to your own, it's not scientific term, but your parents stuff about food, especially as females, the majority of our audience are moms who will readily admit I don't have the best relationship with food and I don't want my child to experience the same. They do feel a lot of pressure, you know, building the foundation for a healthy baby and they hear a lot of bogus stuff on other sites, et cetera, that that makes them feel like this is make or break it for my baby's entire life relationship with food.

Katie Ferraro (21m 48s):

And I know you talk a lot about like, yes, the early years matter, but it's also not too late to change. So like for parents who have food stuff and are worried about projecting that, how can they manage that?

Becky Kennedy (21m 57s):

Yes. So I think that's right. Those two chapters in my book are right next to each other for a reason, the early years matter. And then it is never too late. Right? So there is nothing in our kid that's like dictated by like one moment, right. Or even if we have done something in a patterned way that we later look back and think like, oh, I wish I didn't do it. That's not set in stone. Nothing is set in stone. So that is point number one. Point number two, I hear this a lot from parents. I don't wanna pass on this thing to my kid. How do I not pass something on, how do I not pass on my food stuff to my kid? I mean this like very lovingly. Okay. I think it's just the wrong question. Here's why I think it's the wrong question: rather than I don't wanna pass on my food stuff to my kid. I think a much better question for everyone is what is my food stuff?

Becky Kennedy (22m 40s):

What still remains, and even separate from my kid, what do I wanna change? Just to live like a freer life with my myself. Right? I Don don't wanna pass on my anxiety and my kids. How about just like, don't you just deserve as a human to live life with a little less anxiety, right? Because now, instead of thinking about ourselves, just in relation to our kid, you know what we're thinking about ourselves in relationship to ourselves, and that is actually the biggest gift to your kid, right? Thinking about not passing something on is only gonna fill you with guilt. Thinking about what remains in me that I struggle with. Ooh, now I have an opportunity to work on that. So if you had food stuff, if you have food stuff and you know, right.

Becky Kennedy (23m 21s):

That will come up for you around your child, maybe it's, they're not eating enough. Or maybe it's oh, I think they're eating too much. I need to stop them. Right? Like there could be so many different things. Yeah. We wanna really befriend our own feelings, our own circuits, our own history. That's where there's a wide range of options. Right? There's therapy therapy is not for messed up people. Therapy are, is for people who want to stop reliving their past in their present. Like, that's really what it's for. Like, I would like to make active decisions. I'd like to live according to my values, I would like not to have my past just spill over into my present life. I, think like, that's like, that's, I mean, I'm in therapy weekly. Like it's a huge part of my life. So that's one. The second thing I'll say is if you're a parent who knows your anxiety or your food stuff is strong, you know, it's why like in our membership site, like half of the workshops are just for parents.

Becky Kennedy (24m 10s):

It's like the triggers workshop, the reparenting workshop, the managing adult stress and anxiety workshop. There are actually so many online options now. I mean, and I really mean this. Ours is just one, it's about just finding the right fit. So I'd really find either a therapist or an online course that looks at stuff with food from the perspective of helping you first.

Katie Ferraro (24m 32s):

Could you speak a little about baby behavior at Mealtime? We talked a little bit about when babies don't want to eat. One of the core essentials of the baby-Led Weaning movement and philosophy is that we let the baby drive the eating experience. But again, it can be hard to remember that when you're feeding isn't going so well. So like from a developmental standpoint, what can we expect behavior wise from a baby who's six or seven months of age, just so parents know what's typical and what to expect. I think that sometimes helps, you know, manage their expectations. Like, oh, that's totally normal. That the first few days and weeks they eat absolutely nothing. What else is going on at six and seven months?

Becky Kennedy (25m 3s):

So baby's job is to explore the world, right? They learn through experience. I think that's really important. Babies learn through experience. I actually think adults learn through experience too. Meaning we don't learn things by people telling us, right. We all know this, like an adolescent you're like, I just had to like do the thing. And then I was like, whoa, I shouldn't do that again. Like my parents told me not to, but it just didn't stick. It's not cuz we were bad kids. It's cuz that's how you learn. So if babies learned through experience and their job is to explore, well, for example, sitting in a high chair is really hard for a baby. Like they're like, I wanna go, you know, crawl over to that couch. I wanna touch the blocks. I wanna move and explore sitting in one place is, is almost against what many babies are oriented to doing.

Becky Kennedy (25m 46s):

That's not to say you have to follow them around with food, right? It, it is just to say going in with the expectations of, oh My baby sitting in a high chair for 30 seconds, like might be where they're at. Especially if you know your child's temperament. If you know, My baby is a mover and a shaker, right? And a toucher, those babies are not dying to sit in the same place. So that's number one. And just be able to say to yourself, I don't have a bad baby. I'm not a bad parent. I have a baby who wants to move and then we're in the same place. Again, We can come back to how inconvenient, no wonder this feels so hard, right? But nobody is at fault. Second thing, food is exploration, right? If you think about trying a new food, it's really not that different than trying a new commute to work.

Becky Kennedy (26m 30s):

Right. And all of us differ in terms of where we feel comfortable and like their same routine versus how able we are to explore something new. And here's a paradox. We all are more likely to explore when we feel safe. Safety is a prerequisite for exploration. So if a baby is sitting and it's a stressful situation, no you have to sit, come on. I made you this. Well, if you think about in a baby's body, forget food, their body goes threat, threat, yelling, anger, no safety, no safety, no safety. Even the likelihood, then, they're gonna try a food is so much lower because they don't have that baseline of safety. So one of the things I always tell parents is number one, expect a short duration in the beginning of sitting, it's a new skill to sit still, right?

Becky Kennedy (27m 16s):

And it's hard. And number two, I want to keep stress as low as I can. Keeping stress low around food dynamics is much more important than what a baby puts into their mouth. Because if we think long term keeping stress low is what's gonna allow a baby to explore in the way that's right for their temperament. And that's really what I'm invested in.

Katie Ferraro (27m 36s):

And can you talk a little bit about that stress cuz I mean, as a dietitian it's like yeah, easier said than done. Like I know that the nutrition part doesn't really matter because breast milk or formula is still providing the majority of baby's nutrition through this continuum of learning how to eat. But that stress, that sense that like I know it to be true from a scientific standpoint yet in the moment, no matter how many times you've done this, it still can get stressful and babies can sense that stress. So any tips for beyond just saying keep stress as low as possible. How do we actually make that happen?

Becky Kennedy (28m 8s):

Tranquilizers? No, I'm just joking. No, no, no, no, no, not that was a joke. No, really? How do we keep stress low? Well, first of all, I think it's actually just more hopeful to say like how can I, with my knowledge about myself and the stress I know I can bring to the table, how can I make it a little bit lower? Right? Just like even setting expectations that way is so much more manageable than how can I make this a stress free experience? Like I'd be stressed just thinking that I have to meet that. So let's just make it a little bit lower. I think everyone right now should actually write down, what does it actually mean to me when My baby doesn't wanna sit or eat? And I think the first thought will be like, I don't know. It's annoying. No. The only reason something stressful is because the way we interpret it, right?

Becky Kennedy (28m 51s):

It activates some self-belief usually in us. And I'm just gonna give you an example. It might not be what it is for you for most parents. I know it really does activate. I'm not doing this parenting thing, right? There's better parents out there. Something's wrong with me. Something's wrong with my child. And I really want everyone here to write down what it means. Because once we identify the way we interpret something, even if it doesn't seem to make sense, you might be like, why does it bring up I'm a bad mom? write it down. It's amazing to write it down. Once we know that we can be on the lookout for it. So there's that. Next step after that is, I would say to yourself, what is my primary goal for the eating situation? And here's the thing. It has to be something in your control.

Becky Kennedy (29m 32s):

It cannot be My baby takes two. You know, whatever two bites like Nope that you can even say, oh that's My baby. Not me. I'm not in control. So it might be, my job is to put out food and say, you're the only one in your body. You're the only one who can know what you want. I'm right here. I'm making that up. It might be something simpler. Like here's some food

Katie Ferraro (29m 53s):

I can think of a good example. We have a, I teach you a five step feeding framework where we introduce five new foods a week with the goal of getting your baby to try a hundred new foods before they turn one, it's kind of tied into all of the research about the importance of diet diversity. And for parents, they'll be like, yeah, but they didn't eat any of it. But look what you did. You figured out how to make a pork shoulder into soft shreddable strips of meat with low sodium broth. That's completely appropriate and safe for your baby to eat that the rest of the family can eat. You went through that. You control that. You put that out there for the baby, whether or not they ate it again, does not determine whether you are a good parent, but you did something that was under your control, which instead of just offering avocado, banana and sweet potato over and over and over for months, here you are offering a high Iron food, a food with a new texture, a food with a new taste.

Katie Ferraro (30m 36s):

There's some zinc in there. The baby had fun exploring it. Like all of these things happen because of the step that you made, which was to continue offering new foods versus getting stuck in that rut of three simple starter foods.

Becky Kennedy (30m 47s):

I think yes. And I think for every parent, I think there's something about the word job that like, we take very seriously, right? Like if we tell ourselves something is my job and not--

Katie Ferraro (30m 54s):

Well, like their entire life is kind of dependent upon what you do or not do. So I think it is serious.

Becky Kennedy (30m 59s):

Well, right. But like, so it just say to yourself, but they didn't eat. And then I actually have everyone say out loud right now: not my job, not my job. Like that's not my job actually.

Katie Ferraro (31m 7s):

We also say stay in your lane. Like some, it comes across as a little snarky. Sometimes that some parents need hear, like, dude just stay in your lane. It's not even your job. You know, it's annoying when you're trying to do your job and someone else tries to do it for you. Like your baby's job is to determine, we're following Ellyn Satter's division of responsibility and feeding theory, your baby's job is to determine how much or even whether they eat, stop doing their job. They're never gonna learn how to do their job if you do it for them.

Becky Kennedy (31m 27s):

Right. So here here's I think a kind of a metaphor that always helps me cuz we can get so stuck. So imagine you have a partner and every time you talk to them about something that upsets you, they try to, you know, say like, oh, but just do this. Or why don't you do this? Right. Which we've learned like never really helps anyone. And you've talked to them and you're like, look, I just want you to hear me. I want you to say like, that sounds hard. Okay. Okay. So you have a conversation and you had something, I Don't know, really hurtful happen with a friend and you tell your partner and you're really, really upset. You weren't invited, I Don't know, to their 40th birthday party and you're really upset. And your partner's like, oh, that sounds really tough. I like, I wouldn't like that either. Okay. And then you're like, wow, okay. And then two minutes later, your partner's like, Hey, like you should be happy now.

Becky Kennedy (32m 8s):

Like I did the thing that I was supposed to do. Like, does that feel good to you or no? No. Right. You'd be like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you did do that job. I wanted you to do, but like, sorry, like maybe I didn't explain this well enough. Like that doesn't mean I'm gonna change. Right? Like you would be so annoyed If someone else in a relationship with you doing the job you wanted them to do meant you had to now do something else. Right? Like you'd be like, no, no I'm still sad. But it still mattered. Like, you know, it matters. And I want you to, everyone think about that with food. Like you're like, okay, I'm doing no stress. I'm doing the presenting. And then if your child, they're like, yeah, I'm still not hungry.

Becky Kennedy (32m 49s):

Let's say they could talk or I don't wanna eat right now. Right. And if you said, Hey, I did the thing, they'd say to you, what you would say to your partner. Like, okay, like, yeah,

Katie Ferraro (32m 58s):

Congratulations. Do you want a gold star? Yeah,

Becky Kennedy (33m 2s):

Exactly. Like you doing the thing. Doesn't get rewarded by a child behaving in the way we want. In fact, in fact, knowing our lane and our job is precisely to differentiate the two of us. And so the quote reward isn't to merge us back in. So just saying yourself, I did my job and it mattered. It mattered. Just like if my partner said, oh, that stinks. That matters. It doesn't mean I'm happy. It doesn't mean My baby eats. I did my job and it mattered.

Katie Ferraro (33m 29s):

But I might argue on the flip side, not doing your job. So not listening to your baby's cues and forcing arbitrary amounts of foods down their Gullet cuz you're so convinced they need it. You get to a point where you can, you know, had an animal trainer friend the other days, like it's kind of the same as animals. Like you can break their spirit. Like you can teach your baby to override their hunger and fullness cues if you keep shoving food in their mouth, which is, you know, it sounds forceful, but we see parents doing that. They get so stressed. You have to eat these three ounces of this pureed meat. When the baby will just eventually shut down and be like, fine. I guess this is what eating is about. And then you really, you can set the stage in the totally wrong direction that you don't wanna do by not doing your job. I would argue.

Becky Kennedy (34m 8s):

Yeah. I mean look And again, like I always feel, and I'm sure Katie, you feel the same way. Like we are all doing the best we can with the information we have available in that moment or even the resources we have available in that moment. And when anxiety overrides us, anxiety is a system of threat. And when we feel that there's a threat, we're gonna act to protect everyone. Right. So that's what's happening there. What I would say right is I think a lot about whether we teach kids and babies initially to gaze in first or gaze out first in terms of assessing a situation. Now of course we want, we need to do both that over time. Like for me, I might be like, oh, I'm really tired. I don't wanna go to my friend's dinner. But if it's her 40th birthday party, I should gaze out and be like, well, you know what? She'd probably be upset if I just like didn't show to her 40th dinner.

Becky Kennedy (34m 49s):

Like that matters too. But I think a lot about gazing in first, right? Because that's the way we assess: do I know what's going on in my body? Do I have signals? Do I have feelings that give me information? Do I know myself? Right? Do I have things inside me besides the thing other people put into me? And if you think about the idea of force feeding over time, right? And again, all parents are doing the best they can. And if that's something you've done, I would just say, okay, it's not about being a bad parent. It's like, I must be really anxious. I just probably would benefit from looking into that. But if that's a situation, then really what happens for a baby is they learn, I need to look out. What does everyone want from me? That's the way I get safety. That's what I'm learning is most important. What do you want from me? What do you need from me? What are you saying? I feel, what are you saying I need?

Becky Kennedy (35m 30s):

And that has implications so far beyond food. That's the essence of kind of codependence, right? That's the essence of emptiness, right? That's really the experience of, I really don't know what's going on inside me. I don't know what I want. I don't know what I need. And that's a really disorienting experience.

Katie Ferraro (35m 47s):

Can we talk about Mealtimes, Cuz I know you mentioned they can be really stressful and especially for a lot of families with working parents as well or stay at home parents, it doesn't matter. At the end of a long day, no matter what you did, if you're tired, sometimes the last thing you wanna do is have to go make like wholesome food for your whole family to eat. Any tips for like family dynamics around food in meal times that maybe parents, especially of earlier eaters six and seven, eight month olds can start thinking about as they frame, like, okay, what are Mealtime gonna look like in my families that they don't put undue stress and pressure on themselves about what is already a really stressful time, three times a day.

Becky Kennedy (36m 19s):

Exactly. Right. So I just think, you know, my main piece of advice there is reminding yourself like what's happening today i;sn't predictive of what's happening years from now. I think like the number one almost like thought struggle we have or thought error is something I call like the fast forward thought where you sit down and your baby, like won't stay in high chair, they're crying and you have to like get up with them. And we do something that don't even realize. We're like, oh I'll never be able to have dinner as a family. Like dinners, family is really important. And like you don't even realize that you're responding to your child in the moment based on your anxiety about the next 18 years. Not based on what's happening right there, which is that like your nine month old just like wants to go play and doesn't really wanna sit. And I think that really comes back to the idea of self trust, which I think over time is actually the thing that develops from gazing in you learn to trust yourself.

Becky Kennedy (37m 3s):

Although so many of us and mostly so many women, our whole lives early on were about pleasing others and gazing out. So it's so dysregulating when these things happen in adulthood. So reminding yourself like right now, My baby cannot sit at family dinner. That doesn't mean that won't happen when they're 10, that doesn't mean it won't happen in a couple weeks. And that actually helps us stay grounded. And I always feel like if we stay grounded with what's happening in front of us, that's actually what leads to so much change because our kids feel that groundedness instead of our own anxiety. The other thing I would say is just to really, really think about the dynamic at the table over food, like you've served the food like food time is almost done.

Becky Kennedy (37m 47s):

Play a, a game. It could be two truths and a lie or like get the conversation away from who's eating what or who took what right. Again, if exploration comes from safety, well, you know what helps safety? Connection and levity. Right? And modeling. Right? So I think that's like really important when you are eating with your kids to be like I'm present and we're engaging and connecting about topics other than food.

Katie Ferraro (38m 9s):

I think that's a huge, huge message too, because the same thing happens even earlier on, it's not about the food. It's about giving the baby the experience; at that point, it might be the experience and the opportunity to explore and play with the food and all of the sensory aspects associated with learning how to eat. It doesn't actually matter. And like dietitian moms, I will raise my hand as a group of them. Part of that group, rather, get so bogged down in the minutia of the numbers, like, well, how many milligrams of Iron do they have? Like, is that really what's important here? Like this baby doesn't know how to eat meat yet. We cannot possibly assume that they're gonna get all their Iron from food and taking it away from how much or the food and actually like, oh, this is an experience. And with older kids, it's the same thing. Like I know myself doing bedtime and dinner by myself with seven kids.

Katie Ferraro (38m 50s):

I'm like all about getting that meal to be over so we can freaking be done and go to bed so that I can do all the other adult things I didn't get to do today. And sometimes you do focus on the food instead of like, how, would it really be that hard to play two truths and a lie for five more minutes? Like that's what they're gonna remember. Not that you made freaking broccoli for dinner.

Becky Kennedy (39m 6s):

Exactly. And the other thing I'll say around exploration is not touching a food and swallowing a food. There's a lot between those two points,

Katie Ferraro (39m 15s):

Especially for babies.

Becky Kennedy (39m 15s):

Yeah. And a lot of us grew up in families that really like shamed or blamed that like "don't play with your food or don't spit out your food," right. As if those things are rude or disrespectful, which I always think are interesting interpretations. Cause it looks at a child's behavior through ourselves. It like kind of centers ourselves as if my child is doing something cause they don't respect me. Like it's a very, almost like it's just very parent centric way of interpreting.

Katie Ferraro (39m 34s):

I do have three, six year old boys. So like this is triggering to me cuz I'm like, no, they do do stuff to like really get your goat. And like I need maybe more Dr. Becky in my life to, well,

Becky Kennedy (39m 42s):

You know what the truth is like I was like, there's many ways to interpret behavior and there's no singular truth. So like I'm just a pragmatist. I'm like if it works for you to interpret a kid's behavior through the lens of disrespect, if you feel like that helps you, that helps you stay calm. It helps you be effective. Okay. But I've never heard one parent who says that. They're like, no, I end up looking at my child as an antagonist. I then intervene as if they are an antagonist; that never leads to anything productive. So whether it's true or not, like, I really mean this. Like it doesn't even really matter because there's many versions of truth. Right. Where I find looking at, let's say spitting out food as oh, like they were tasting it. You know what I mean? Like they're trying to figure out a new texture, right. And that look, if it's over and over, I might say, Ooh, look, you're really trying to figure out this new food. I'm not gonna let you spit out food over and over and over.

Becky Kennedy (40m 22s):

If you really wanna do that, you can take that carrot to the bathroom and spit it out over and over on the toilet. Look, we're just not gonna do that here.

Katie Ferraro (40m 28s):

That's your validation part there, right?

Becky Kennedy (40m 30s):

Yes. Yes, exactly. And it's really seeing the good inside a kid, right? Like just like for us, like nobody likes when someone else looks at you like a bad person, it just, we shut down even further.

Katie Ferraro (40m 39s):

I know. And that language comes so easily to you because of your formal training and the nature of your work as a parent, that is something I have to practice so much. And I know my audience does too. Especially the Positive language training for don't throw your food on the floor, baby. It's like, oh baby, if you're all done, we can be done with meal or food is for putting in our mouth. Like that just does not come naturally. And so I think there is something to studying these scripts. I know at least for myself, lots of people learn different ways, but like, oh I never even thought to frame it that way. Instead of like, no, don't do that. You know, there, there are other ways to say the same thing.

Becky Kennedy (41m 8s):

I'm on a kick with this idea, right? So parenting is a job. It is a very important job. I would argue. It's the most important job in the whole world and probably also the hardest,

Katie Ferraro (41m 18s):

Terrible salary, Terrible salary. No benefits.

Becky Kennedy (41m 20s):

Exactly. And yet, if you think about other jobs we value in this country, people in those jobs get coaches and training and are never seen as lacking because they get that they're seen as wow. How awesome.

Katie Ferraro (41m 30s):

They were alotted for that. You are absolutely right.

Becky Kennedy (41m 34s):

Absolutely an executive coach who works with the CEO. Everyone looks at CEO like, wow, you're really invested in your job. Or an athlete who has, they have a psychologist. They have so many people. So right now for everyone listening, most people I know are like, I don't wanna parent the way I was parented, I wanna do something different. That's really learning a new language. So I am now learning a new language for a job I really care about. And I don't have resources to support me. And whether those resources are given to us or not, like I really do think as parents are like, what am I investing in? Right. I always say for self-care like, I'm, I'm like, I love a pedicure. I really do. But I can tell you a pedicure doesn't help me feel competent. It does not help me gain new skills that just help me every day. Like it's something to say, like I have a job as a parent and I love my job or I, I like my job sometimes, but it's an important job.

Becky Kennedy (42m 20s):

It's a hard job. I deserve investing in resources, just like anybody else who has a job. So if that language doesn't come naturally to you, first of all, that makes you normal. It makes you someone who's willing to be a cycle breaker. How brave and amazing. And I think we have to take that next step. Am I giving myself the resources I deserve? Right. I think that's such an important framework.

Katie Ferraro (42m 41s):

And speaking of resources, where can our audience go to learn more about your work and to support your business?

Becky Kennedy (42m 46s):

Well, thank you, so many things. So everything really is housed atgoodinside.com. So good inside.com. You can find a lot of things. So you can find, first of all, I always tell people like everyone should sign up for my free Thursday email, right? You go to goodinside.com. It's free, It's, I hate calling it a newsletter. Cause like when I hear a newsletter, I'm like, I do not need a newsletter. But what the Thursday email is, is like, I just, I do, I have so many thoughts. I like to organize them. I like to put out, here's a big idea. That's the reframe. Now let's translate that reframe into a strategy and let's get more specific and give a script to put the strategy into use. And it just never fits all on Instagram. It's just like a little too much information.

Katie Ferraro (43m 23s):

Oh wait. You mean in six second reels people aren't getting your major message?

Becky Kennedy (43m 28s):

Like not All the time. Exactly. But in the email you get a lot. So like that's easy to sign up for obviously all my social stuff you can find there too. And then there's two things. Yeah. That are like new and I'm super, super proud of. So my book, you know, is really, I promise you, it's not a collection of my Instagram posts. Like for forever. I didn't wanna write a book.

Katie Ferraro (43m 46s):

I can confirm that. Cause a lot of people with big Instagram accounts like yourself, you get their book. And you're like, yeah, I saw that in your story highlights like that, you literally just took. Your book is not like that it's much deeper. And I, I found some very, very useful, including the scripts as someone who needs, like, tell me the words to say, I love that about your book.

Becky Kennedy (44m 3s):

Yes. And then beyond the book is, you know, this, the biggest project we've been working on for a year and a half is this membership platform. Right? I think over and over, I hear the same three things from parents. Like I want to be able to ask a question and get an answer I trust. Right? We all know Google is just optimized for SEO. It's not trying to help you. It doesn't give any useful information. And if you're like me, you end up reading some blog and you're like, I don't even trust this person. What am I reading? So we created a digital library. You can picture like Peloton or Netflix, but for parenting. So the sections are foundations that's all the stuff for the earlier. It might be sibling rivalry. It's, reparenting it's anxiety. It's all the things included in that are my 22 long workshops, but also five minute videos.

Becky Kennedy (44m 46s):

And guess what, like seriously, 50, a hundred scripts, like organized by topic. And so that's the digital library and then there's a community. It hits thousands and thousands of parents around the world who are similar in like their parenting values that you can ask questions to. But not only are they there, we actually have manualized and trained good inside coaches. So these are parenting coaches trained in our approach who live in the community. They respond, I respond there too. And the coaches and experts change in our approach. And me, we have over three live events a week, right? Workshops, small groups, podcast clubs, book clubs, community chats, a holding space when something happens in the country that, or the world that feels really bad.

Becky Kennedy (45m 28s):

And so it really is expert advice, community support, and all the content that you can trust all in one place. And it's pretty special. So I'm really proud of that.

Katie Ferraro (45m 37s):

And I will link to all of your resources in the shownotes for this episode below where you're listening, but also at blwpodcast.com. Dr. Becky, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.

Becky Kennedy (45m 46s):

Thank you so much for having me.

Katie Ferraro (45m 48s):

Well, I hope you guys enjoyed that episode with Dr. Becky Kennedy, Dr. Becky good inside. Her brand new book is called "good inside." And I promise you, it is not just like a rehashing of her Instagram highlights as so many parenting expert books tend to be, I read the whole thing cover to cover. I really enjoyed it. And I have to say that the sample scripts in there, at least for me were the most helpful, because as I mentioned in the episode, that Positive language stuff does not come naturally to everyone. And so it's something you have to practice. So I appreciate her resources and I'll link everything that she mentioned, especially her parenting portal. If you're interested in further training. And I know that kind of final message that she was sharing about, like, if you had a colleague in work and they had a new job and they cared about their job, wouldn't they go get coaching and training from someone who knows what the job is and specializes it it's like, yeah, absolutely.

Katie Ferraro (46m 33s):

And I feel that way as a dietitian, if you don't know about starting solid foods and how to safely offer your baby a variety of foods and flavors and tastes and textures, then you should follow and learn from somebody who that's all they do. So I do love the idea of parent coaching or having a nutrition coach or having a course to help you with baby-Led Weaning or some of the parenting aspects that you might be struggling with. So it was a nice refreshing conversation. And again, I'll link up everything that Dr. Becky shared in the shownotes for this episode, that's at blwpodcast.com/264. Thanks so much for listening and I'll see you next time.