Marsha Dunn Klein (1m 30s):

When children are just eating baby foods or just eating pouches, I mean, one year olds who haven't got a clue, how to handle a lump in their mouth because they've had no texture. They've had no experience with it. They've built no confidence.

Katie Ferraro (1m 42s):

Hey there I'm Katie Ferraro, Registered Dietitian college nutrition professor and mom of seven specializing in baby led weaning here on the baby led weaning made easy podcast. I help you strip out all of the noise and nonsense about feeding, leading you with the competence and knowledge you need to give your baby a safe start to solid foods using baby led weaning. Well, Hey guys, welcome back. I am over the moon about this next guest. I have been dying to have Marsha Dunn Klein on the baby led weaning made easy podcast. Pretty much since we started, I have like a short list of dream guests. Most of them have been on it, which is super cool, but Marsha is one of the few remaining and she finally was available to do an interview.

Katie Ferraro (2m 28s):

And we're going to be talking today about Sensory. It's called Sensory one-on-one, and we're going to be diving into What Motivates Babies to Eat for those of you who are in the feeding therapy world or occupational therapist or speech language pathologist working in feeding. You probably know who Marsha is, but for the rest of you, if you haven't been introduced to Marsha Dunn Klein, she is a pediatric occupational therapist. She specialized in pediatric feeding for almost 50 years. She's like the O G lady of feeding. One of the first occupational therapists, the first occupational therapist. She actually not the first occupational therapist ever, but the one in feeding and definitely known for feeding. She coauthored pre feeding skills and iconic textbook both the first and the second edition.

Katie Ferraro (3m 9s):

And she wrote that with Suzanne Evans Morris, she has a newer book out, relatively new called anxious eaters, anxious, mealtimes, practical, and compassionate strategies for mealtime peace. Marsha is known for her to Get Permission Approach to feeding children. She is a feeding therapist. She has presented nationally and internationally. She has a world-renowned Get Permission Institute and she'll be talking about some of the offerings that she has there. Whether you're a parent, who's got some anxiety around food and feeding, or if you're a healthcare professional, looking to learn more about pediatric feeding, you'll definitely want to check out Marsha's resources. So today we are going to be talking primarily about sensory issues and in particular, What Motivates Babies to Eat and Marshall will be explaining the difference between internal and external motivators and which ones we want to be fostering.

Katie Ferraro (3m 58s):

In which ones we want to be stepping back from tons of amazing information. This is a little bit of a longer interview, but for those of you who are huge Marsha Dunn, Klein fans, I wanted you guys to hear the whole thing. And if you've never heard her speak, like there's almost nothing that you have to edit out because literally every word that comes out of her mouth is gold. She has such a way with words and taking what can be overwhelming and anxiety, inducing concepts surrounding food and feeding for parents, and really helping us step back to analyze what's going on. Is this a problem? If it is a problem, what can we do? So with no further ado, it is my absolute pleasure to welcome Marsha Dunn Klein to the baby led weaning podcast. As we talk about Sensory 1 0 1 and what motivates babies to eat,

Marsha Dunn Klein (4m 44s):

Nice to be here. Hi again.

Katie Ferraro (4m 45s):

All right. This is an absolute pleasure to get to chat with you and pick your brain, which I love every time I sit down with you, I can't stop talking and let you talk today all about the sensory stuff that pertains to feeding. But before we dive in, could you give our audience an introduction to yourself and the work that you do and have done in feeding

Marsha Dunn Klein (5m 3s):

Katie. I'm a pediatric occupational therapist and I've been working with children and doing feeding five decades. I love this topic. Can that period of time I've written. Co-authored a number of books on feeding, including the sort of the first book that came out on pediatric feeding with Suzanne Evans, Morris, and that's pre feeding skills. I've written a book about homemade blended formula for two fed children. And my latest book is anxious eaters, anxious, mealtimes for really seriously picky eaters. I've also done some inventing of a melding toy and that special spoon and I've, I've been a clinician for decades, and now I present nationally and internationally.

Marsha Dunn Klein (5m 44s):

And this is my passion. You also need to know Katie that I'm a food celebrator to start with. So I just love food and eating,

Katie Ferraro (5m 51s):

Oh, you're a food celebrator because you mailed me a jar of jam that you made. You're

Marsha Dunn Klein (5m 56s):

Amazing. It was fun. I enjoy sharing love with food. So that's part of my DNA, right? So that's who I am. And I'm happy to Help you and brainstorm with you in any way I can on your podcast, because I love what you're doing to help parents and kids.

Katie Ferraro (6m 11s):

I love that you are so willing to share. I mean, you literally wrote the book on so many things related to feeding that my audience is like salivating to learn. So I always think back to the time when I was a new parent and I had my first of seven kids now, but first baby, even though I had a background in food and nutrition and Dietitian training, the word Sensory was always kind of enigmatic to me. Like we hear occupational therapist and speech, language pathologists, always talking about Sensory. But when you are describing a sensory experience, what does that mean? Maybe from a clinical definition standpoint, but I'm actually more interested to hear from you as a person, Marsha with 50 years experience in feeding. What does Sensory mean when it comes to food in our babies?

Marsha Dunn Klein (6m 51s):

I would say Sensory is the bottom line for enjoyment. So if you think about foods, it has a look, a smell, a texture, a taste, and it has sound. And those are the properties of foods that attract us that make us want to try food. So when you think about it, Katie, when you and I go to a restaurant, if it looks great, you want to try it right? How many times are you at a restaurant? And you see somebody else ordered a dessert and you want that one because it looked good. The look is really important, but also the taste matters. The texture matters. And we know that when children like the sensory properties, the foods they want more.

Marsha Dunn Klein (7m 34s):

And when we've spoken before, when I talk with parents about introducing foods to their babies, when they're first introducing foods, what we're looking for is not, how do we get a bunch of food in those kiddos? What we're looking for is sweetheart, what do you love? And what are those properties they love? And what are the textures they like? And what are the flavors they like? So when children are first meeting a new food, they will interact with it by exploring the sensory properties. So whatever you have offered them on their tray, the things that look good to them are the things they're going to reach for the things that feel good to them. They might want to put in their mouth as they smell food.

Marsha Dunn Klein (8m 16s):

It's a rehearsal, it's a preview and what it might taste like. So if that smell is attractive from a Sensory perspective, Babies want to bring it to their mouth because smell is a taste preview, right? Text you, when babies are picking food up and being messy as they well can be, they're learning about it kind of breaks apart, and they're getting an idea or it's rubbery, or it's tough for it's dry. They're learning. What is it about this food that I could learn about books for? I plop it in my mouth and they get an idea. I'll preview a rehearsal. So touching is a very important part of introducing a baby to food or them introducing themselves to a new food and figuring out which ones to put in their mouth.

Marsha Dunn Klein (8m 60s):

And so those sensory variables can attract babies to the new food or can tell the baby, wait late. I'm not quite ready for that today, but give me a chance. Do it again tomorrow or next week. And I may try again and it may feel different, right? So Sensory to me has a very lot to do with enjoyment, helping the child be motivated to enjoy and try it. We would not put a food in our mouth if we hated the look, if we hated the smell and if we hated the texture of the taste, we just wouldn't do it. So we're looking for what is the child love

Katie Ferraro (9m 31s):

Marsha. I'm not sure about your thoughts on pouches or if you want to share about them. But I think one of the limitations is that the baby can't see the food that baby can't touch the food. They can't smell it. It all looks the same. And to be honest is mostly applesauce or pear puree. And while it might be a vehicle to get some quote unquote nutrition in it, it's so far removed from actual food. And much of the sensory experience is gone. If a baby's just sucking foods out of a pouch, how do you feel about,

Marsha Dunn Klein (9m 60s):

So I'm going to start off by saying, I'm not going to say patches are the worst thing in the world, because sometimes you're off at an event and your child is really hungry and it can serve the need at the moment. And sometimes I'm happy that instead of just applesauce and bananas, it actually has some chia seeds and some Kaylin's and other kinds of things. But having said that as a parent, I never had pouches in my kids' lives and they didn't need them. Right. They didn't need pouches because I agree with you. 100% children need to see where food comes from. They need to feel what apples are like and feel what applesauce is like and learn to like all those individual components separately. And when children are just eating baby foods or just sitting patches, I mean, one year olds who haven't got a clue, how to handle a lump in their mouth because they've had no texture, they've had no experience with it.

Marsha Dunn Klein (10m 49s):

They've built no confidence with it. So I think people that are just stuck on pouches can really limit their child's experience with texture, with individual flavors and flavors of individual foods, as well as combination foods. What I will say to a parent is if you're going to use a pouch, because that's what you decided, could you at least put the pouch in a bowl, give the child a spoon and let them dip dip, and try to do it themselves. If you're going to use a pouch, could it be in a cup? And could it be something they use to practice sort of smoothie, milkshake, drinking, straw drinking, right? Could it have another value, but to use pouches as the way I'm going to get vegetables in my child and the way my child is going to get filled up, when you're hungry, I think really, really limits their experience, their oral skills.

Marsha Dunn Klein (11m 41s):

And then paranthetically Katie. I meet a lot of kiddos that now only want the red pouch now only want the green pouch and can become pretty rigid. And so when I meet kids that are sort of on the cautious end of life, I meet a lot of kids later on, they got very stuck. So I'll meet four and five-year-olds that'll lead, you know, five or 10 pouches, a day of certain colors and certain brands because they got stuck. So my philosophy with babies is let's offer a lot with offer variation. Let's put it in the bowl and out of the bowl in the smoothie cup and offer those same foods sometimes out of a blender and some that you meshed up and let's offer variation because then kids don't get so stuck.

Marsha Dunn Klein (12m 21s):

And that's why you present your great courses about a hundred first foods for babies. Cause you're saying to families, variation is what's the most important.

Katie Ferraro (12m 33s):

Absolutely. And I think parents think, well, these pouches have all these different flavors in them. Again, not shaming. Any parents who use pouches are certainly convenient foods. I think they're perfect for an airplane. You know, you don't want to make a mess. You don't want to do the whole production, certainly that safe at your baby's not in a high chair, but you know, if we got to eat food sometimes, and that's great for there, but from a nutrition standpoint, I do think a lot of parents are kidding themselves when they say, oh, this is kale. Read the ingredient list. That's green colored, apple sauce. And we are training our babies to expect everything, to be sweet when the reality is they need to try bitter vegetables on their own. And so I encourage parents offer as many vegetables, servings or opportunities as you do fruits, just try to do one for one, because fruits are wonderful.

Katie Ferraro (13m 15s):

But when parents say, gosh, my baby only eats fruits. It's like the parents who say, oh, my kid only eats McDonald's drive through like who drove them through the drive through at McDonald's and not shaming. Anyone who goes to McDonald's for the drive-through, but the kids, aren't the one making those food choices. We have to be proactive in making sure there's a variety out there. And it is hard work because it's easy to snatch a pouch right off the shelf at target. And, but, you know, gosh, four or $5 for a pouch these days, times some parents eating 10, like it gets to be very costly as well, which is also my concern,

Marsha Dunn Klein (13m 43s):

Variation choices. What I say to parents a lot is every food that you talk about because I'm a cook and I really like to eat and every food can be prepared in 150 different ways, right? So kale can be crispy and interesting. It can be in a soup, it can be in a salad. It can be in little shreds. It can be with that kind of a salad dressing on it. It can be with so many in so many different ways. For me, Katie, the classic is, you know, baby food, green beans. I find baby for green beans. Pretty disgusting myself, just disgusting. And I love green beans. So I'll say if you offer baby for green beans and your baby doesn't eat it. And you take green beans off the list.

Marsha Dunn Klein (14m 24s):

You've missed so many wonderful opportunities. What about steam green beans? What about a green bean as a dipper? What about a green bean with various delicious kinds of sauces and flavorings? There's what about green beans chopped up in the rice and cheese casserole that you're offering? There are so many ways what about grilled? And there are so many ways that these can be,

Katie Ferraro (14m 44s):

I can make them safe for babies to eat too. It doesn't have to be, oh, they only can eat the baby food. Right.

Marsha Dunn Klein (14m 50s):

But if we go back, what is your baby love? That's a whole different way to approach any food choices that we make as grownups.

Katie Ferraro (14m 58s):

And I think Marsha, you hit the nail on the head when you talked about the level of anxiety, and I know you are the expert in anxiety at mealtime. So many of our parents, and you've come from a feeding therapy standpoint where you see, I hate to say it, but the worst of the worst, I work primarily with the neuro-typical population, parents that are experiencing what is very difficult for their baby's age, but maybe they've never seen it before, or maybe they're worried. Gosh, my baby's six months of age and they're not eating enough meat. They're not getting enough iron. So they get concerned and stressed about how much their babies eat. And too often we lose sight or are not aware of the fact that babies need time to learn how to eat. So I was wondering if you could describe the other learning aspects that are going on during the transition to solid foods, just to help parents feel less stressed about how much the baby is eating.

Marsha Dunn Klein (15m 41s):

So when babies are first eating of introduced to salads, as, as you speak about all the time, they're breastfed and bottle fed already, they're getting their main nutrition in those ways. But the introduction of food is to find out what you love and to help the child master the skills of eating those foods. They're learning how to pick it up and let go of it. They're learning about how to bite food and how to bite it and move it around in their mouth. And maybe they're going to gag a time or two when it kind of goes back into one place, but then pretty darn quickly, babies are amazing. They learn how to flip it over to the side so that they can mush it with their gums. And then they're going to learn when food scatter in their mouth and move all around like a Ritz cracker, how do I organize that back up together?

Marsha Dunn Klein (16m 21s):

And how do I take that P that's over here and organize it. So they're learning the skills of chewing and organizing food in their mouth to keep it safe. They're learning the skills of bringing it to their mouth and biting it off. And they're learning the skills of utensils. I think of dips and dippers and that little green bean we were just talking about as a pre utensil because babies are learning how to organize their wrist and how to get the risk to their mouth in the right direction. So it doesn't go in their ear every time, right? But babies who are motivated to eat, learn those skills pretty darn quickly. I'm going to give you a quick example. When a baby is learning how to bring a spoon to their mouth, a lot of times Babies, if you gave a baby up a spoon bowl of soup and they brought it to their mouth babies initially just spill it all over themselves because this risk doesn't understand how to sort of go in a different angle.

Marsha Dunn Klein (17m 12s):

So they don't spill everything off this phone, but these babies are motivated to bring it to their mouth. So pretty quickly they learn to adapt in an amazing way, adapt those hand skills so that spoon and at hand can figure out how to approach that mouth. So the child can get the food. So giving children time, giving children the opportunity to explore this food with curiosity, and when they're motivated to eat it, most babies learn most babies gain those skills and developmentally move forward. And there are a number of babies who have other things going on, maybe motor challenges, maybe chewing challenge. There are some babies where they're going to need an extra bit of help to get past those other kinds of issues.

Marsha Dunn Klein (17m 57s):

But the babies you're talking about and most babies figure it on their own. With time,

Katie Ferraro (18m 2s):

You mentioned the things that motivate babies to eat, and we know it's not our job to make the babies Eat, but could you share some insights on the external and the internal motivators to eat and is one more important than the other? And should parents be looking at or nurturing some differently than others in order to get their baby to eat eventually? Cause that's the goal here. We want Babies to learn how to eat. We don't want to force them to do it, but what should we be aware of as far as motivation factor?

Marsha Dunn Klein (18m 28s):

Yes. So as you said, it is not our grownup job to get food in children, period. It is our job to offer food to children and have them take in as much as they want, as much as they can in the way they can and stop when they're ready. When they do that, when we allow them to do that, they're eating is internally motivated. They're eating because they're hungry, they're eating because they enjoy it. They're eating because they're curious, they're eating because they see other people around them eating it. They're eating because it's interesting. And the first part of that, that I went through quickly was they're eating because they're hungry. So one of the things we want to do when we offer children, food is initially, we're just, we're offering food at various times during the day.

Marsha Dunn Klein (19m 12s):

But gradually that kind of blends itself into a structure of here's a meal and then here's a break and then here's a meal and then here's a break. So children have the opportunity, the privilege of being hungry at a meal time because sometimes families get pretty excited about sort of offering food all day long food and drink and juice and food and snacks and all day. And when kids don't have the privilege of having some hungry to meal time, they're not going to be as motivated to try some new things. So from a motivation perspective, we would like that motivation to be internal coming from the child. What can happen unfortunately is that some parents, some grownups sort of emphasize the external motivators ate this and you can have a sticker eat this, and then you can have your dessert eat this because I want you to finish everything on your plate because I told you to so rewards and stickers and bribes and pressure are external motivators to eat.

Marsha Dunn Klein (20m 10s):

And what we don't want to do is teach children. They're eating because they're grownup sets. So they're eating because of those external motivators. We want them to eat because we offered and the ate what they could of what was offered from internal motivation. Katie, you know that there's lots of grownups that we had to finish everything on our plate. And there was a lot of pressure for us to eat and we sort of lost track. And so some grownups don't eat enough and some grownups eat too much and have challenges with their eating because they lost track of being internally motivated to eat when they were younger. And then it takes a while for week grownups to figure that out.

Katie Ferraro (20m 46s):

Marsha, I love the language that you use about the privilege of being allowed to feel hunger because so many parents spend the entirety, especially if it's a mom of older kids. Like they think the goal is to prevent hunger at all times. So now we're eating all the time with no defined meals and constant grazing or snacking, which is really stressful to parents. And certainly never allows the child to feel hunger. And we know that early on babies are not eating or learning how to eat in response to hunger because of course breast milk or formula is meeting most of their needs. That comes later. Once they've learned how to eat at approximately what age do babies have the ability to sense hunger? And should we be allowing them the privilege of feeling some hunger so that they can then learn to nurse themselves with food more so than milk?

Katie Ferraro (21m 27s):

Is there an age? I mean, I know all babies are different, but just curious.

Marsha Dunn Klein (21m 31s):

So when babies are born, they don't know about hunger yet. Right? They feel away, they cry, we offer them breast or bottle and then they feel better and then they cry. And then, you know, so it becomes a cycle where they learn that boob. I want it because I feel this way in my stomach and I'm hungry. I mean, they, they begin to make a relationship with the breast, has something to do with how I feel or what I need. And a lot of early sucking is also relating to regulation and connection, right? But as babies, you're eating foods and finding things they enjoy, we are going to naturally see them eating more. So it becomes sort of a meal of solids because they wanted more of it. And then that evolves into the parents offering kind of a structure.

Marsha Dunn Klein (22m 13s):

And then from there, we begin to see the baby realizing this food has something to do with my satiation in my stomach. But I don't know if I can actually tell you a day that the switch turns on and off, because I think it's a continuum of learning that evolves into the structure of meals and breaks and meals and breaks. It doesn't start the,

Katie Ferraro (22m 32s):

The day where you wake up and you realize, gosh, the mess isn't that bad today. Maybe they're actually getting the hang of it. It doesn't happen overnight. It gradually,

Marsha Dunn Klein (22m 42s):

But it's pretty easy to kind of, I don't want parents to feel like they have to be rigid about schedules and routines, but it does evolve into a generalized sort of full and empty kind of cycle. The thing that we can do inadvertently is disrupt that, but just, here's a juice pouch and here's a bunch of Cheerios and here's a bunch of goldfish. And before you realize it, you've been feeding the child through the entire, from breakfast to the next meal, with no breaks in between, because sometimes parents use food as a way to shut them up and have them be quiet,

Katie Ferraro (23m 13s):

The conditioned behavior. Then they expect a snack and it has no tie to hunger. And that's when we get into trouble

Marsha Dunn Klein (23m 18s):

And it happens inadvertently and the next then we can get there. And so all I'm going to say is sometimes it happens, but when it does just notice it, and maybe it's just sort of keep the child busy with other kinds of things until the mealtime. And all of a sudden, you notice they were happy at the park and now there's time to eat Marsha. Yeah.

Katie Ferraro (23m 34s):

You teach about the difference between demands and offers in the feeding dynamic. And I can imagine that demanding doesn't motivate babies to eat, but that offering does, could you expound a little bit on this and then share about your philosophy and the Get Permission Approach?

Marsha Dunn Klein (23m 49s):

So in the Get Permission Approach we talk about is the adult job to offer. And it's the child job to give permission to say, I want it. We don't want it. It's the child's job to then respond. It's also our job to make sure that the food is appropriate developmentally and safety and all those kinds of things. But so when I say it's, our job to offer offering is, is offering it's offering on the food on the tray. It's as you talk about a puree little practice period in the beginning, sometimes we offer, you know, off of food on a spoon and the child takes it, or doesn't take it when you have give them a Phillip spoon, but cooperate gives the child dot choice. A demand on the other hand is not a choice in a demand.

Marsha Dunn Klein (24m 31s):

It's, I'm the grownup. And I'm saying, you should put this in your mouth right now. You should eat this amount. You should stop when I say stop. So it demand is an external motivator and it is not supporting the child learning to listen to their own body. And what we know that could help us feel better about this. Katie is that babies don't eat the same amount at every meal. And some days are big eating days and some days are less or eating days. And it's an evolution. As kids are starting foods and it evolves into the child learning how to eat enough to manage all their own daily caloric needs. It's an evolution. But when a parent says, I want you to eat this amount of protein at the meal and this amount of fruit and this amount of carbohydrate and this amount of vegetable.

Marsha Dunn Klein (25m 15s):

When the parents doing the demanding of the amounts, it can go bad, right? We want to offer all of those food groups. But I remember when my kids were little, there was, you know, there was a period of time where I would still offer all the right, all the great food groups and they don't leave grapes, this meal and I'm cheese, this meal, and a deli ham on this meal, that's toddlers. But what we can keep doing is offering variety and not narrowing out offers and they'll get it. They do get it.

Katie Ferraro (25m 43s):

Marsha, I have to brag on you for one second, because we only recently met and we had a fabulous conversation and interview. And then I asked, I wanted to try out her teethers. So she made these amazing new teethers, which we'll link to on the show notes for this episode at BLW podcast.com. I said, can you send me some? So she sent me a box. It also had a jar of homemade jam. And she also sent me a picture. She quilts. So she paid hungry caterpillar quilts for some of her fellows. I was like, this woman is amazing, but you also sent me another little gift in there. There was a magnet with a grasshopper on it. And it was curious why your name and your practice is associated with a grasshopper, but thank you for it. It's on my fridge.

Marsha Dunn Klein (26m 20s):

So I've seen my name on the internet as, as called that grasshopper therapist. And because in my teachings, I'm talking about worry as an issue that can influence children who have challenges with eating, to be comfortable with eating. And I tell the story on my website, Get Permission Institute that com and I tell the story in my books. I tell the story at every lecture that I, and I give away little grasshopper magnets for people to put on their refrigerator to remember that sometimes trying a new food can be scary or worrisome. And if you consider that trying that new food for your child may be kind of like you trying to grasshopper in Wahaca with your kids when you're there on a Spanish immersion program.

Marsha Dunn Klein (27m 3s):

Right? If you think that it might be like introducing a grasshopper, even though it's just lettuce, right? Then you might present it a little differently where you're not demanding, where you're offering a little tiny taste where you're offering with other foods, kids know where you're trying different ways. So I encourage you to go to the Get Permission Institute website, where I have a video of me telling the story of the grasshopper. And I have the grasshopper story there, Katie in a lot of languages, Spanish and German and Portuguese and Chinese and Japanese and Hebrew and Arabic and Turkish and Greek mean lots of different languages. And if you know of somebody who would really love it in a different language, contact me and we'll try to work that out.

Katie Ferraro (27m 45s):

And you also have the hungry caterpillar Eric Carl's book in like every single language too, don't you? I do. Why do you love the hungry caterpillar so much?

Marsha Dunn Klein (27m 52s):

Oh my goodness. So I get the hungry caterpillar book in every place that I ever traveled to. And I love to travel. And I like the hungry caterpillar book because it's a kid book it's beautifully, beautifully illustrated. And this hungry caterpillar is learning to eat new foods, one food at a time and one bite of this, and then two bites of that. And it's a progression where the cha the caterpillar builds its skills and then becomes big and becomes a butterfly. So it's a sequential, it's celebrating enjoyment. I'm going to say between you and I, the sensory aspects of foods, but the caterpillar is enjoying many, many new foods gradually developmentally and then becomes a butterfly.

Marsha Dunn Klein (28m 35s):

And it's pretty bad.

Katie Ferraro (28m 37s):

Well, Marsha, thank you so much for your time today and sharing your expertise with our audience. You are such a wealth of knowledge, but I so appreciate your choice of language. And the one I can't get out of my head is when you had said previously, when you were talking about a baby's reaction and you called it an extra big reaction, and I was like, that's so cool because so many therapists would have given a clinical term or a diagnosis or, and things that scare parents. And you're like, ah, an extra big reaction. Like that's just what happened there. Okay. I can deal with that. Now I can move on. So thank you for your very thoughtful choice of words, because it really does help put parents at ease. Tell us where we can go to learn more about your work and also to support and learn from your important body of work. Especially for those who might need a little bit of extra help with regards to anxiety at mealtimes.

Marsha Dunn Klein (29m 19s):

My newest book is anxious eaters, anxious, mealtimes, and it's available on Amazon. And in Archway publisher, I recently set up an online platform for teaching more about feeding and I'm. And I'm talking more about the special needs end of feeding challenges, but that's the Get Permission Institute. So it's www dot Get Permission institute.com. And we are offering, I have a 16 hour master course on anxious eaters that I offer a few times a year. It's coming up in December. We are also offering concept courses, which are two hour webinars that sort of dive more deeply into a number of the topics that we talk about in the 16 hour course. You can tell, I like talking about feeding and I could have my master course 40 hours, right?

Marsha Dunn Klein (30m 5s):

There's so much I like to say, but so what I've done in that course is touch on a lot of the topics. And then through the concept courses, you can go on our online and get a deeper dive into some of those courses. Last night, I just did one called Permission and pressure where we look at the neurophysiology of pressure and eating with kids who are worried about eating. So there are lots of courses up there and there we are populating it with more courses all the time. So go back frequently and see what's new.

Katie Ferraro (30m 34s):

And I will be sure to link to all of your resources on the show notes page for this episode, if you guys go to BLW podcast.com, well, Marsha, thank you again so much. It was a pleasure speaking with you.

Marsha Dunn Klein (30m 46s):

Thanks. I'll see you next time. Bye bye. Well,

Katie Ferraro (30m 49s):

I hope you guys enjoyed that interview with Marsha Dunn Klein. She is seriously one of the nicest people on the planet. Certainly one of the most informed educators and practitioners in the world of infant feeding and there's like no shortage of things to talk about. We already have like five other EPISODE ideas lined up. So you'll definitely be hearing more from Marsha, but I'm so glad you could join us today to talk about Sensory 1 0 1 and what motivates babies to eat. All of Marcia's resources that she mentioned from today's episode will be linked up on the show notes for this episode, which you can find at BLWpodcast.com. Thank you guys so much for being here. I appreciate you.